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Asahi Linux lead developer Hector Martin resigns from Linux kernel

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Re: Asahi Linux lead developer Hector Martin resigns from Linux kernel

#111

Post by trashface »

tptacek wrote: post #71
Hamuko wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wikipedia has plenty of gatekeeping too. I once had to submit a single edit three times before the moderators safeguarding the article begrudgingly accepted it.

They do, but they have a stated goal of maximizing contribution. Linux does not, right? I'm asking.

"Maximum number", perhaps not, but Greg KH did at one point want new contributors: https://old.reddit.com/r/linux/comments/2ny1lz/im_greg_kroah...

Q: What would make you even more happy with Linux? GregKH: If you contribute to it.

Re: Asahi Linux lead developer Hector Martin resigns from Linux kernel

#112

Post by neoromantique »

dncornholio wrote: post #72
harvey9 wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

this seems very inefficient and the opposite of what I assumed. repeated requests take up time on both sides and are not a very good measure of how important something is.

it's not perfect but it works.

well, apparently it doesn't.

Re: Asahi Linux lead developer Hector Martin resigns from Linux kernel

#113

Post by nialv7 »

dralley wrote: post #63
nialv7 wrote: post #43

Quoting from this thread https://lore.kernel.org/rust-for-linux/Z6OzgBYZNJPr_ZD1@phen... > Simona Vetter: (addressing Hector) ...Now I'm left with the unlikely explanation that you just like thundering in as the cavalry, fashionably late, maximally destructive, because it entertains the masses on fedi or reddit or wherever. I have no idea what you're trying to achieve here, I really don't get it, but I am for sure fe…

Sima also went way too far with some of her comments this morning: https://lore.kernel.org/rust-for-linux/2b9b75d1-eb8e-494a-b0... Quoting > Being toxic on the right side of an argument is still toxic, [...] unironically, immediately after saying @marcan > and if that then causes you to ragequit, because you can't actually deal with the heat you've been dishing out coming back around the corner: fuck off ...is quite…

Yeah I commented before I saw that one toot from @sima. Indeed they both look bad here.

Re: Asahi Linux lead developer Hector Martin resigns from Linux kernel

#114

Post by Philpax »

starspangled wrote: post #105
threatofrain wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Perhaps C is here to stay and that is the way Linux should live and naturally die. That's what's being proposed here by the guy who opposes multi-language projects.

Yes, perhaps a C-only Linux would do that and die, and perhaps it would continue its customization of C flavor and runtime it uses (e.g., the various static and dynamic memory limitations and checkers) and closes the gap with Rust to a point where the incremental benefit of using it is not significant enough that it makes a Rust based competitor an inevitability. We may already be beyond that point, even.

The changes required to bring C to a Rust level of safety would make it an entirely different language, even when restricted to the kernel's domain. Also, if you're already doing codebase-specific patches to the language itself, many of the arguments around codebase portability that justify the use of C fall apart.

Aside from that, there are other benefits to Rust than safety: it's better at modelling data and states, as the now-infamous filesystem talk [0] outlined.

[0]: https://lwn.net/Articles/978738/

Re: Asahi Linux lead developer Hector Martin resigns from Linux kernel

#115

Post by renewedrebecca »

duxup wrote: post #44
randmeerkat wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Turns out FOSS devs are humas just like everybody else and suffer from the same flaws. It is rather anticlimactic. I had always imagined FOSS to be this free exchange of ideas, thoughtful consideration, and intentional action. Seeing what it has become though… Maybe closed source is better.

I hate to mention this but closed source appears to involve humans too. I was disappointed when I discovered this as well.

"People are a problem" - Douglas Adams

Re: Asahi Linux lead developer Hector Martin resigns from Linux kernel

#116

Post by naasking »

neoromantique wrote: post #112
dncornholio wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

it's not perfect but it works.

well, apparently it doesn't.

Well, apparently nobody even noticed for 5 years, so that's 5 years that nobody had to even think about that code.

Re: Asahi Linux lead developer Hector Martin resigns from Linux kernel

#117

Post by dralley »

ndiddy wrote: post #49
nialv7 wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Looks like @marcan deleted his existence on mastodon? Does anyone have a copy of what he said on there?

The tweet he got called out for on the thread was "Thinking of literally starting a Linux maintainer hall of shame. Not for public consumption, but to help new kernel contributors know what to expect. Every experienced kernel submitter has this in their head, maybe it should be finally written down."

The person who called him out for that made some testy social media comments of her own this morning.

Personally, seeing

> Being toxic on the right side of an argument is still toxic, [...]

written unironically, on social media, immediately after that person wrote @marcan

> and if that then causes you to ragequit, because you can't actually deal with the heat you've been dishing out coming back around the corner: fuck off

leaves me feeling more sympathetic to marcan's argument about the kernel being full of toxic attitudes, not less. Maybe public shaming isn't the answer but there's a problem here. Maybe don't make comments like that on social media if you want to criticize people for leaning on social media in kernel disputes.

Re: Asahi Linux lead developer Hector Martin resigns from Linux kernel

#118

Post by tptacek »

gary_0 wrote: post #27

The Rust drama is an uncommon failure of leadership for Torvalds. Instead of decisively saying "no, never" or "yes, make it so," he has consistently equivocated on the Rust issue. Given the crisis of confidence among a sizeable (and very vocal) contingent of the Linux community, that decision has backfired horribly. And it's quite out of character for Linus not to have a blazingly clear opinion. (We all know his stan…

I think at the point where you're loudly complaining about the email patch process (and hey, I agree it's the worst), this has stopped being about Rust.

Re: Asahi Linux lead developer Hector Martin resigns from Linux kernel

#119

Post by CopperWing »

jeroenhd wrote: post #8
AgentME wrote: post #4

If an individual maintainer can veto critical parts of the Rust for Linux project and announce they'll do everything they can to stop it, then Linus is wasting everyone else's time pretending it's a real project. It's not a proper environment to put contributors in.

I think it's rather silly to have some subsystem maintainers do everything in their power to sabotage the improvement projects by subsystem and even high level maintainers in the kernel. It was a fine position to take back when introduction of Rust into the kernel was still very much a discussion point. However, the discussion is over, Rust has been accepted into the kernel. This entire struggle has been kernel devel…

The DMA subsystem maintainer has some reasons: at this time you can disable all rust drivers when building the Linux kernel but you cannot disable rust wrappers to C language APIs. So if you need to change for example the DMA APIs, you also need to fix the rust wrapper before submitting the C patches otherwise you cannot even build a C only kernel.

Re: Asahi Linux lead developer Hector Martin resigns from Linux kernel

#120

Post by zoogeny »

bjord wrote: post #20
Dr_Emann wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"The common ground is that I have absolutely no interest in helping to spread a multi-language code base. I absolutely support using Rust in new codebase, but I do not at all in Linux." https://lwn.net/ml/all/20250204052916.GA28741@lst.de/ That doesn't sound like he's only talking about in his area to me

is this just weird religious adherence to the belief that a multi-language codebase will be harder to maintain? what's the rationale, exactly?

I'm just parsing the thread but it seems that changes to the C api can break the Rust bindings.

This leads to two situations: the C maintainer has to also update the Rust binding, or the patch has to wait for a Rust capable maintainer to fix them up.

For the first solution, the C maintainer is claiming he has enough work on his plate just keeping up with the C code that he doesn't want to work on Rust. He also believes it is unfair to force every C maintainer to learn enough Rust to keep their integration points working.

For the second solution, the C maintainer is pointing out that Linus has a history of refusing to merge C patches that break Rust builds. So even though the Rust advocates promise they will handle all of the Rust stuff and they are OK with their stuff being broken after C changes until they get around to fixing it, Linus doesn't seem to actually allow for this in practice.

I can see the maintainers point. Sooner or later Rust bindings on critical systems will be essential and changes to the C code will be gated on changes to the Rust code. It is a fantasy of the Rust maintainers that they will have to shoulder that entire burden. But even if they did, it would give them some pretty hefty leverage over the C maintainers in those essential cases. And it also introduces a requirement that someone with enough Rust and subsystem knowledge is even available for the job. People making promises today may disappear tomorrow, leaving the maintainer with an essential binding to a language he doesn't want to support.

edit: as has been said elsewhere, Linus could make some of this go away by committing to let the Rust builds break. I don't know if that could be done in a way that wouldn't be a de facto fork.

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