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U.K. orders Apple to let it spy on users’ encrypted accounts

washingtonpost.com

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Re: U.K. orders Apple to let it spy on users’ encrypted accounts

#101

Post by ben_w »

HPsquared wrote: post #88
ben_w wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

UK judges are not elected, and don't do things on the basis of what the public thinks. This headline comes to mind: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enemies_of_the_People_(headlin...

Judges only interpret the law as laid down by parliament. And, in theory at least, parliament cares about public opinion.

Even to the extent that parliament does care — and both this lot and their predecessors have ignored a lot of criticism about this specific law — turning public disfavour into a change to the law is often a slow process.

I don't see UK judges getting motivated to rule in favour of a foreign company because they took their ball and went home, not even in cases where the ball happens to be very popular.

Re: U.K. orders Apple to let it spy on users’ encrypted accounts

#102

Post by maeil »

From the macrumors thread:

> So much for personal liberties. I'd like to give Labour the benefit of the doubt and assume this is a holdover from the last government knowing how fast the civil service actually works but given the Tory 3.0 plan they are going with I wouldn't put it passed them.

>We didn't vote for this.

You very much did vote for this, you voted for Labour under Keir Starmer and he did not particularly hide his being tory-lite. If one is surprised by this they must not have paid any attention before voting.

Re: U.K. orders Apple to let it spy on users’ encrypted accounts

#103

Post by JW_00000 »

latexr wrote: post #89

> When asked by The Post whether any government had requested a backdoor, Google spokesman Ed Fernandez did not provide a direct answer but suggested none exist: "Google cannot access Android end-to-end encrypted backup data, even with a legal order," he stated. No, that does not suggest none exists, it only says they don’t have access to it. They could have chosen or have been ordered to give the keys to the governm…

But if they could give a key to the government agency, it wouldn't be end-to-end encrypted, right? Or are you thinking they would have a copy of users' keys that they gave out? (Which I guess is technically possible.)

Re: U.K. orders Apple to let it spy on users’ encrypted accounts

#104

Post by jeroenhd »

sam_lowry_ wrote: post #95
squeegee_scream wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you have a very high opinion of the millions of people around the globe, with varying levels of computer literacy, who are terrorists, criminals, and/or child abusers.

I once worked with a business lady who used her dumbphone as an argument in a discussion where we were deciding whether all our users have smartphones. She proudly displayed the dumbphone and said that if she has one, others probably have too. I learned only much later that her husband was prosecuted for fraud related to government funds. So she had a good reason to have a dumbphone. It's anecdotal evidence, but stil…

> I learned only much later that her husband was prosecuted for fraud related to government funds. So she had a good reason to have a dumbphone.

Does she? Law enforcement can wiretap and track dumbphones just as easily as smart phones. The lack of encrypted calling/texting options even make it easier for law enforcement. If she's trying to hide more fraud, the dumbphone isn't helping her. And of course if she is trying to hide fraud from law enforcement, she probably shouldn't be doing the fraud in the first place.

There are good reasons for using dumbphones (smartphones distract, and it's having a serious impact on everyone these days) but avoiding being prosecuted isn't one.

Re: U.K. orders Apple to let it spy on users’ encrypted accounts

#106

Post by EdwardCoffin »

cpymchn wrote: post #82
cpymchn wrote: post #77

What's new here? As mentioned in the article, Salt Typhoon and the recency of this request by the UK. At this point they should know better. My pet theory is anytime the US wants to do something illegal under US law, they simply ask the UK to do it and vice versa. That's why Salt Typhoon isn't and never will be a lesson learned.

I recommend Susan Landau as the goto person on this. She recently spoke with Lawfare on the current state of play. [1] Susan Landau and Alan Rozenshtein Debate End-to-End Encryption (Again!) https://www.lawfaremedia.org/article/lawfare-daily--susan-la... !)

Formatting in link is broken. This is a direct link to the youtube version: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AWBFXiOcR88

Re: U.K. orders Apple to let it spy on users’ encrypted accounts

#107

Post by maeil »

botanical76 wrote: post #91

This is so disheartening. I thought we were making progress in the anti-surveillance privacy narrative, but this says otherwise. As a UK citizen, is there anything I can do to dissuade this? edit: typo

> As a UK citizen, is there anything I can do to dissuade this?

If you voted for this Tory-lite government, then you can stop voting for any future Tory-lite governments. If you did not, there's not much you can do in practice without devoting your life to it.

Re: U.K. orders Apple to let it spy on users’ encrypted accounts

#108

Post by _Algernon_ »

Someone wrote: post #64
_Algernon_ wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If they had some balls, they would just stop offering icloud altogether in the UK until they have appealed. Let's see how the judge feels when half the country can't access their files anymore and Apple points to this decision as the reason.

> when half the country can't access their files anymore and Apple points to this decision as the reason. Governments are extremely powerful. They may issue a gag order ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gag_order ) that makes it illegal for Apple to do that.

Even in that case, Apple could withdraw from the market.

If push comes to shove and apple actually called their bluff and withdrew completely from the UK market, I'd bet that that government would become so unpopular that they would not be elected again for quite some time.

Re: U.K. orders Apple to let it spy on users’ encrypted accounts

#109

Post by bilekas »

cmsj wrote: post #90
bilekas wrote: post #79

> requires that Apple creates a back door that allows UK security officials unencumbered access to encrypted user data worldwide How could this even be enforced if Apple pulls out cloud services of the UK ? It's such a ridiculous request, the British Intelligence agencies must be bored coming up with new ways to make Apple look good.

Apple still has legal entities in the UK. Pulling out cloud services would be insufficient to prevent the UK authorities from interfering with their activities.

> prevent the UK authorities from interfering with their activities

I'm still missing how this could be enforced ? To my layman understanding, this reads the same as if China said : "Meta, Tesla, Valve etc has entities in China therefore we get to see all data they store in the EU and the US.

The UK has Zero jurisdiction in Ireland for example where a lot of EU data may be stored.

Re: U.K. orders Apple to let it spy on users’ encrypted accounts

#110

Post by snapcaster »

botanical76 wrote: post #91

This is so disheartening. I thought we were making progress in the anti-surveillance privacy narrative, but this says otherwise. As a UK citizen, is there anything I can do to dissuade this? edit: typo

In my mind, the only way to beat these efforts for good is to win hearts and minds of the larger public. Currently because only weirdos like us care about this stuff, we have to constantly be on top of these things and writing letters making posts etc.

Overall i agree with you, it is really disheartening. That being said, i've made progress with my family on valuing privacy and the dangers of surveillance. I think people might be changing their minds slowly but still lots of work to do.

A breakthrough with my sisters was when abortion was threatened here in the states. Mentioned to them that it would be easy for authorities to enforce abortion punishments by subpoenaing data from menstruation cycle tracker apps. This kind of "clicked" for them and they became more open to the other parts (not given ratukan or whatever their purchase history, etc. etc.)

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