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U.K. orders Apple to let it spy on users’ encrypted accounts

washingtonpost.com

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Re: U.K. orders Apple to let it spy on users’ encrypted accounts

#81

Post by pantulis »

miki123211 wrote: post #41
rcxdude wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It'll catch the bad guys who don't know what they're doing, which is a pretty big percentage of them.

Yeah, this is likely not intended to catch the most sophisticated of hackers, but your average drug dealer / murderer / thief / paedophile. I don't know where the belief that all criminals are tech experts comes from; the popularity of cool-looking "encrypted" phones as opposed to actually encrypted apps like Signal should have long dispelled that myth. I'd argue that the opposite is probably true, people who think t…

> I don't know where the belief that all criminals are tech experts comes from;

From forums of tech experts.

I do not think this attempt by the authorities will be any useful, while it would initially work... well these guys may not be hackers but are not idiots and over time you will get your average baddies become tech-savvy enough to circumvent this.

Re: U.K. orders Apple to let it spy on users’ encrypted accounts

#82

Post by cpymchn »

cpymchn wrote: post #77

What's new here? As mentioned in the article, Salt Typhoon and the recency of this request by the UK. At this point they should know better. My pet theory is anytime the US wants to do something illegal under US law, they simply ask the UK to do it and vice versa. That's why Salt Typhoon isn't and never will be a lesson learned.

I recommend Susan Landau as the goto person on this. She recently spoke with Lawfare on the current state of play.

[1] Susan Landau and Alan Rozenshtein Debate End-to-End Encryption (Again!) https://www.lawfaremedia.org/article/lawfare-daily--susan-la...!)

Re: U.K. orders Apple to let it spy on users’ encrypted accounts

#83

Post by nicce »

reify wrote: post #71

I doubt very much if any terrorist, criminal or child abuser is going to use any google or apple cloud service to back up their files. Anyone with a fundamental understanding of online privacy and security would encrypt any files prior to uploading them to the cloud rendering any back doors and access to those files useless and toothless. I dont use any of these services. I have never understood the thinking around u…

The real goldmine is WhatsApp. In most cases, WhatsApp backups are enabled and uploaded by default, including when the whole iPhone backup is created. And by default, backups are unencrypted.

So if you ever wonder how they access those WhatsApp messages, when you think that they would be end-to-end encrypted, reality is something else.

Re: U.K. orders Apple to let it spy on users’ encrypted accounts

#84

Post by jkaplowitz »

pjc50 wrote: post #38
Ekaros wrote: post #3

The government did get more than third of the votes. So this is the choice of democratically elected government and the voters and as such should be followed.

This sort of policy comes from the Home Office regardless of who gets elected. The spooks always want everything. You could probably make an ECHR argument about it, but even Germany who are most paranoid about Stasi-like behavior have some sort of rights carveout for law enforcement purposes.

Germany hasn't imposed any similar ban on end-to-end encryption without a law enforcement backdoor. My configured iPhone region, configured Apple ID region, and physical location are all in Germany right now, and I was able to enable Apple's Advanced Data Protection here without a problem.

Yes, German law enforcement does have a rights carveout, but not nearly as big of one as in the UK (or the US).

Re: U.K. orders Apple to let it spy on users’ encrypted accounts

#85

Post by sgt »

nicce wrote: post #83
reify wrote: post #71

I doubt very much if any terrorist, criminal or child abuser is going to use any google or apple cloud service to back up their files. Anyone with a fundamental understanding of online privacy and security would encrypt any files prior to uploading them to the cloud rendering any back doors and access to those files useless and toothless. I dont use any of these services. I have never understood the thinking around u…

The real goldmine is WhatsApp. In most cases, WhatsApp backups are enabled and uploaded by default, including when the whole iPhone backup is created. And by default, backups are unencrypted. So if you ever wonder how they access those WhatsApp messages, when you think that they would be end-to-end encrypted, reality is something else.

I've got backups disabled on WhatsApp and the app reminds me like once every few weeks "You should turn on your backups!". Easier to click yes.

Re: U.K. orders Apple to let it spy on users’ encrypted accounts

#86

Post by brookst »

reify wrote: post #71

I doubt very much if any terrorist, criminal or child abuser is going to use any google or apple cloud service to back up their files. Anyone with a fundamental understanding of online privacy and security would encrypt any files prior to uploading them to the cloud rendering any back doors and access to those files useless and toothless. I dont use any of these services. I have never understood the thinking around u…

The overlap between “criminal” and “fundamental understanding of online security” is fairly small.

I use online services and sync, but my life is so boring (and data breaches have exposed so much) that a disaster that destroys my house and all backups is far more likely that harm from government or private snooping on my cloud files.

I know we’re supposed to stand on principle and make data storage choices as if today’s cat photo were evidence of being the real JFK assassin, but I don’t have the energy.

Re: U.K. orders Apple to let it spy on users’ encrypted accounts

#87

Post by brookst »

voidUpdate wrote: post #76
reify wrote: post #71

I doubt very much if any terrorist, criminal or child abuser is going to use any google or apple cloud service to back up their files. Anyone with a fundamental understanding of online privacy and security would encrypt any files prior to uploading them to the cloud rendering any back doors and access to those files useless and toothless. I dont use any of these services. I have never understood the thinking around u…

Don't iPhone photos automatically sync to your iCloud?

You can turn it off, and it is E2EE.

Re: U.K. orders Apple to let it spy on users’ encrypted accounts

#88

Post by HPsquared »

ben_w wrote: post #67
_Algernon_ wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If they had some balls, they would just stop offering icloud altogether in the UK until they have appealed. Let's see how the judge feels when half the country can't access their files anymore and Apple points to this decision as the reason.

UK judges are not elected, and don't do things on the basis of what the public thinks. This headline comes to mind: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enemies_of_the_People_(headlin...

Judges only interpret the law as laid down by parliament. And, in theory at least, parliament cares about public opinion.

Re: U.K. orders Apple to let it spy on users’ encrypted accounts

#89

Post by latexr »

> When asked by The Post whether any government had requested a backdoor, Google spokesman Ed Fernandez did not provide a direct answer but suggested none exist: "Google cannot access Android end-to-end encrypted backup data, even with a legal order," he stated.

No, that does not suggest none exists, it only says they don’t have access to it. They could have chosen or have been ordered to give the keys to the government agency but not keep one themselves. I’m not saying that’s likely, just that it’s important to not take these statements as saying more than they do. They wouldn’t hesitate to use “technically correct” as a defence and you have to take that into account.

Re: U.K. orders Apple to let it spy on users’ encrypted accounts

#90

Post by cmsj »

bilekas wrote: post #79

> requires that Apple creates a back door that allows UK security officials unencumbered access to encrypted user data worldwide How could this even be enforced if Apple pulls out cloud services of the UK ? It's such a ridiculous request, the British Intelligence agencies must be bored coming up with new ways to make Apple look good.

Apple still has legal entities in the UK. Pulling out cloud services would be insufficient to prevent the UK authorities from interfering with their activities.
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