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They Thought They Were Free: The Germans, 1933-45 (1955)

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Re: They Thought They Were Free: The Germans, 1933-45 (1955)

#341

Earlier quoted context omitted.

i don't even want to give people that benefit at this point. used to think that it was education, circumstances, outside forces, culture, etc. like "if only" we had XYZ then we can prevent this. at this point i just want to call it "stupidity". not even a left vs right thing. there exists a subset of the population that cannot and will not be educated or have the ability to reason on a certain level to make things wo…

This is a beautiful book. In particular this excerpt is frustrating though. As said directly in the text, it's hard to see the beginnings. Yes, many things are changing right now, but to be fair, if you went to any random trump supporter and showed them this text they would immediately recognize it and tell you all the things the prior admins have done that matches these "sudden" decisions "made in secret" that nobod…

I read this book years ago and it had a huge impact on my thought.

I agree with your statements here, and I've been trying to figure out how to have some of these conversations with my Trump-supporter friends.

"He's planning to put migrants in Gitmo." But Gitmo has already existed through red and blue administrations. It's not like it's a brand new concentration camp.

"Look at the laundry list of executive orders." But Biden did a bunch of EOs early on too.

Both sides have done tariffs. Anwar al-Awlaki was an American citizen killed in a drone strike under Obama.

The Patriot Act and the 100 Mile Border Zone undermined the Fourth Amendment years ago.

We've permitted corruption and insider trading for congresspeople for years.

The fact is, we've had bipartisan "fascism" creeping up on us for decades. I don't even know where to start with root causes, and everything is so damn historically muddy that it's hard to persuade someone who genuinely believes that "Trump & Elon just want less government spending" that they're not using their exceptional powers for good.

Re: They Thought They Were Free: The Germans, 1933-45 (1955)

#342

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I see this as very different from "i'm eating ivermectin because bigpharma wants me to buy their vaccines" or whatever it is people say. There are certainly fascism experts out there, but the one thing that I've noticed again and again is that they emphasize how effective fascism is at changing forms and tactics. Today, most of the countries we refer to as authoritarian or fascist are formally liberal democracies (by…

> this is just who we are as a people. I do not believe that. I believe this situation is engineered, and we have some very long game playing manipulators being very successful today. Society engineering is real, and there are many players active in that game.

Societal engineering is not mutually exclusive with either confusion over what fascism is nor the many fascist traits that have always been in this country.

But yes, I think I would probably just call the societal engineering "for-profit media". Manufacturing Consent should be read by every adult in this country.

Re: They Thought They Were Free: The Germans, 1933-45 (1955)

#343

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It was a genocide long before October 7th.

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It can be a genocide before they're all dead you know. If we go by your definition the holocaust wasn't one either.

Re: They Thought They Were Free: The Germans, 1933-45 (1955)

#344

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Anyone who had hope that Trump would avert the catastrophe was clearly ignorant of the facts of his subservience to the greater Israel plan. Meanwhile, while Palestinians are eating cats, we are free to refer to Monty Python all we like. Just don't mention the war .

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I'm flagging this because it's two paragraphs of propaganda opposite to base reality.

Re: They Thought They Were Free: The Germans, 1933-45 (1955)

#345

"The Germans" is an absolutely jaw dropping read, a series of interviews with average German citizens and low-level nazi party members, conducted a decade or so after the war, by an American Jewish journalist. It shows, in first hand accounts, the banality of evil and how easily it can prevail if people do nothing. It is an account of modern tyranny and everyday collaboration. The parallels in the feeling of what's h…

I remember I once stumbled upon pictures of the daily life of ordinary nazis. They looked so normal, having fun, teasing each other, drinking and playing instruments. There is even a video where hitler is shying away from his love companion. This was a shock to me as a kid: evil doesn't look like the caricature of "the very bad guy", it emerges in every day people. I think we failed to communicate that. It was too te…

> Worse, on the other side, outraged people abused the term nazi to call out anybody that had a bad behavior. But there is a huge difference between being an asshole and being ready to commit genocide.

> Eventually it means the word nazi lost all of its meaning. And all of its usefulness to defend ourselves.

In my experience, most of the people who get accused of being Nazis do turn out to be actual Nazis. Sometimes they are stupid enough to make overt Nazi gestures (e.g. Elon Musk) which is pretty much the only way the average person will accept that someone is a Nazi. Much more frequently they turn out to agree with Nazi ideas such as ethnic cleansing, but do not do the salute, and people will say they're not really a Nazi because they didn't do the salute.

Re: They Thought They Were Free: The Germans, 1933-45 (1955)

#347
post #246

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nah, cynicism is the only rational reaction now. Lots of people died from covid and our poor government response, but Trump got a majority because eggs are too expensive.

> but Trump got a majority because eggs are too expensive. You guys need to stop being so disingenuous (and get some new material). EVERYTHING got a lot more expensive under the previous administration. Whether it’s Biden’s fault or not is irrelevant. A poor economy motivates people to vote for the other party, ESPECIALLY when the average person felt they had better economic prospects when “the other team” was in pow…

(Note: I'm not an american)

> Whether it’s Biden’s fault or not is irrelevant

> again, whether that was Trump’s doing or not is irrelevant

For democracy to work, you need voters with a good enough civics education to understand how the different parts of government interact, and a trustworthy media providing factual news so voters can understand the dilemmas their politicians are facing.

If what you're saying is right, and American voters are unable or unwilling to understand how their vote and current events combine to cause certain outcomes, doesn't that mean democracy in the US cannot possibly work?

What you're describing sounds closer to a popularity contest or a sports competition than politics.

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Personally, I believe a major part of this issue is caused by the political system and media landscape of the US.

In a two-party system as in the US, the legislative only represents half the population (as bipartisan efforts are rare), leading to resentment among the other half.

In a mixed-member proportional system[1], as in Germany, New Zealand and many Scandinavian countries, you end up with many more different parties in parliament (Germany currently has 8 [2]). For any law to pass, you need multiple parties to work together, which allows more voters to be represented.

Similarly, while in Germany newspapers and public broadcasters still provide high-quality news (less than 20% of the population distrust the public broadcasters and major newspapers as of June 2024 [3]), in the US the media tried to improve their ratings by replacing factual reporting and analysis with ever more emotional content.

The level of polarization in the US as it is today will lead to a new civil war, or worse, if it continues. How can a democracy continue if the majority of voters cannot even agree on basic facts?

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The perfect example for this is the discussion around the re-categorization of Pluto. Which has no real-world impact on anyone, yet everyone had an immutable opinion on.

The arguments for categorizing Pluto as a dwarf planet were relatively simple: We've found many other objects like Pluto. They're more similar to one another than to the other planets. Some of them are larger and heavier than Pluto. Either our solar system has 17 planets, or it has 8.

But the arguments against re-categorizing Pluto were of a very different nature. People had spent a lot of effort memorizing the planets in school, and didn't want all that effort to be wasted. People were emotionally attached to the way things had been. People preferred the emotional comfort of something that wasn't real, over the inconvenient truth.

One argument is based on logic and scientific fact, the other on emotional attachment to a middle-school understanding of the world.

The Enlightenment once replaced the emotional, religious order of the world with scientific fact and logic. This is the basis the US and modern democracies are based upon.

How did we end up in a situation where half of the political spectrum wants to tear down the very foundation of democracy and replace it with emotion, religion and tradition, medieval concepts we had long left behind?

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1. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QT0I-sdoSXU

2. https://www.bundeswahlleiterin.de/en/bundestagswahlen/2021/e...

3. https://reutersinstitute.politics.ox.ac.uk/digital-news-repo...

Re: They Thought They Were Free: The Germans, 1933-45 (1955)

#348

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On one hand, you're partially right: It's a pretty sad state of affairs that our only choices in the previous election were "maybe let's not elect a fascist" and a fascist. I can totally agree with you that I would have loved an option that was "let's make life better ". On the other hand, what does it say about our society that given those two options, we picked the Fascist? It's not like the messaging from the Repu…

I don't think people who voted for Harris thought "yeah, let's keep healthcare pro corporate and screw the poor", they voted for other stuff. And I think people who voted for Trump didn't vote specifically against LGBTQ+ policies necessarily. Of course, media and social media had a heavy influence, but on everybody.

The coworkers I felt comfortable asking why they voted for Trump came out of the gate with some variation on "no pretend girls in girls sports and locker rooms". To some of them being gay is apparently "just something pedos do". Plenty of people voted against lgbtq+ rights explicitly. But beyond that we are all stupid on the issues, and to some extent that is unavoidable. We can't all be experts in economics. So we can't vote on issues, we need to vote on character. When faced with a wolf in sheep's clothing and a wolf, pick the one still pretending. At least pretending to feel shame about corruption sends the message that it is wrong.

Re: They Thought They Were Free: The Germans, 1933-45 (1955)

#349
post #223

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

From the outside, it continues to surprise me when people bring this up, as if they're either too ignorant to know about the Dixiecrat schism or want to pretend that everyone else is. What's the point? It's so easy to look up.

It's just propaganda, optics, PR. Obviously the Democrat party in 1940 has absolutely no relation to the Democrat party in 2025, except for the name. People use that same name to smear the 2025 party because they can. And it works because propaganda works. That's how Germany got Hitler and it's how the USA got Elon.

Re: They Thought They Were Free: The Germans, 1933-45 (1955)

#350

Earlier quoted context omitted.

i don't even want to give people that benefit at this point. used to think that it was education, circumstances, outside forces, culture, etc. like "if only" we had XYZ then we can prevent this. at this point i just want to call it "stupidity". not even a left vs right thing. there exists a subset of the population that cannot and will not be educated or have the ability to reason on a certain level to make things wo…

> social media and tech just made this 10x more effective. Social media took away the hesitation of crowing about stupid things. If many people are saying it, maybe I am not stupid after all. The legitimisation and amplification of dumbness is a big contributor to the current state. Among other things of course.

When there started to be money made, and even better real power to be gained by herding such crowds then its not anymore just about self-organization over time, the push becomes very proactive
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