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They Thought They Were Free: The Germans, 1933-45 (1955)

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Re: They Thought They Were Free: The Germans, 1933-45 (1955)

#221

"The Germans" is an absolutely jaw dropping read, a series of interviews with average German citizens and low-level nazi party members, conducted a decade or so after the war, by an American Jewish journalist. It shows, in first hand accounts, the banality of evil and how easily it can prevail if people do nothing. It is an account of modern tyranny and everyday collaboration. The parallels in the feeling of what's h…

I'm having a hard time googling the book you mentioned. Is it by any chance called 'They Thought They Were Free: The Germans 1933-45'? That's the closest thing I could find. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/They_Thought_They_Were_Free

Yes. "They thought they were free" is the main title. "The Germans 1933-1945" is the subtitle.

Re: They Thought They Were Free: The Germans, 1933-45 (1955)

#223

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> In 1942 there were 110,000 Japanese-American citizens, in good standing, law abiding people, who were thrown into internment camps simply because their parents were born in the wrong country. That's all they did wrong. They had no right to a lawyer, no right to a fair trial, no right to a jury of their peers, no right to due process of any kind. The only right they had was...right this way! Into the internment camp…

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From the outside, it continues to surprise me when people bring this up, as if they're either too ignorant to know about the Dixiecrat schism or want to pretend that everyone else is. What's the point? It's so easy to look up.

Re: They Thought They Were Free: The Germans, 1933-45 (1955)

#224

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What a way to utterly waste the likely last few generations of "civilized" humanity on Earth... :(

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> 1. The USA will likely address climate change directly through technology (geoengineering) vs rapid degrowth (the only two plausible means of stabilizing the climate)

That climate change can be addressed through technology is of course true, but equating that with geoengineering is pure insanity. Also, there's _nothing_ that indicates that the US will address this area at all, especially not now, with an administration that doesn't even believe that there's anything to address!

> 2. The USA will likely avoid war.

I do not understand how you can draw that conclusion after seeing the new president threaten even _allies_ with war in just a few weeks in office.

> 3. The USA will likely experience large-scale economic growth due to regulatory change, efficient government services, compounding industrial ecosystems and robotics

Which efficient government services are you talking about? The ones provided by skilled bureaucrats being replaced due to lacking "loyalty"?

> 4. The American scientific establishment and education system are likely to be transformed to create massive jumps in productivity (in the age of AI)

Transformed by having their funding slashed?

> We already have smarter AI than 99% of humans

You seem to be sampling a very strange subset of humans.

> There is little doubt that this will be applied across society at an unbelievable scale and speed.

There's, in fact, lots of doubt.

> In short, China’s economic model (low-corruption communistic capitalism) is working way better than liberal democratic models.

For certain things, sure. For other things (like freedom of speech, personal liberties): very much not.

> There are very few ways to compete with China without very strong leadership — and now, it seems, we have that chance.

So, you want a "strong leader". How does that go down in history again? Anyway – do you think that in addition to being "strong" there are other aspects of a leader that you might want to have in addition? Like, I don't know, intelligence and compassion? Or are you just going for strength to smack everyone over the head?

> And, with the global distribution of high-intelligence AI, there is plenty of room for distributed, decentralized local growth that can enable all people around the world to participate in economic development and super-abundant resources.

Absolute meaningless dribble. It just needs a sprinkle of blockchain or something.

> Things will continue to accelerate. And the biggest wellbeing challenges will come from overabundance of resources rather than their scarcity.

So when can people suffering under these authoritarian strongmen expect this abundance? How much suffering will they have to take before utopia hits? Or, alternatively, before we can laugh you lot off for a few generations again.

Re: They Thought They Were Free: The Germans, 1933-45 (1955)

#225

"The Germans" is an absolutely jaw dropping read, a series of interviews with average German citizens and low-level nazi party members, conducted a decade or so after the war, by an American Jewish journalist. It shows, in first hand accounts, the banality of evil and how easily it can prevail if people do nothing. It is an account of modern tyranny and everyday collaboration. The parallels in the feeling of what's h…

i don't even want to give people that benefit at this point. used to think that it was education, circumstances, outside forces, culture, etc. like "if only" we had XYZ then we can prevent this. at this point i just want to call it "stupidity". not even a left vs right thing. there exists a subset of the population that cannot and will not be educated or have the ability to reason on a certain level to make things wo…

I don't believe in this "natural stupidity" theory, many well-educated people voted red. Fascism is not a natural state of mind, it is carefully and relentlessly cultivated over years by a giant propaganda machine, at the hands of the capital class who stands to benefit the most from the current situation.

This is no coincidence that Trump's cabinet is the most billionaire-friendly ever. Total deregulation of businesses is the point, fascism is the mean. Eventually, fascism becomes the point and even billionaires become losers. I don't think we're quite there yet, but close.

Re: They Thought They Were Free: The Germans, 1933-45 (1955)

#226
post #202

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nah, cynicism is the only rational reaction now. Lots of people died from covid and our poor government response, but Trump got a majority because eggs are too expensive.

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Gaza has a population of over 2 million people, and according to Wikipedia the civilian death toll has been under 50,000.

I'm not saying that's not terrible, of course it is. But I'm pretty sure that if Israel wanted to commit genocide there would be a lot more.

Re: They Thought They Were Free: The Germans, 1933-45 (1955)

#227
post #209
post #202

Earlier quoted context omitted.

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Eh. Pretty much everyone called what happened in Gaza an attempt at genocide, including many Israeli scholar. The wiki page [1] list some source from the U.N, various NGO, ... Amos Goldberg ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amos_Goldberg ) called it a genocide, and the ICC launched an investigation (ofc, blocked by Israel).

Is Hamas a terrorist group ? Yeah, by many definitions. But if you accept this, you also cannot not see how what Israel did in Gaza, and has been doing for years with Palestinian, is not genocide: Force displacement of vast amount of population, regularly blockading humanitarian aid, mass destruction of civilian infrastructure, mass imprisonment, often with little to no representation, mass killing of civilian (it is estimated, by many source, that roughly 45000 Palestinian died, of which at least ~80% where civilian) ... This is the textbook definition of genocide. If you accept the Shoah, the Armenian genocide, the genocide of the tutsis, ... You cannot logically not see this as a Palestinian genocide.

As for the U.S involvement, that's honestly not for me to say. I am not a us citizen.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_genocide_accusatio...

Re: They Thought They Were Free: The Germans, 1933-45 (1955)

#228

"The Germans" is an absolutely jaw dropping read, a series of interviews with average German citizens and low-level nazi party members, conducted a decade or so after the war, by an American Jewish journalist. It shows, in first hand accounts, the banality of evil and how easily it can prevail if people do nothing. It is an account of modern tyranny and everyday collaboration. The parallels in the feeling of what's h…

i don't even want to give people that benefit at this point. used to think that it was education, circumstances, outside forces, culture, etc. like "if only" we had XYZ then we can prevent this. at this point i just want to call it "stupidity". not even a left vs right thing. there exists a subset of the population that cannot and will not be educated or have the ability to reason on a certain level to make things wo…

> there exists a subset of the population that cannot and will not be educated or have the ability to reason on a certain level to make things work

I'm sceptical of that. I tend to suspect that Michael Gove's "the people have had enough of experts" thing was _kind_ of correct; there's a deep strain of anti-expert feeling throughout, at least, the West at the moment. (I don't think this is quite the same as traditional anti-intellectualism; it seems to be almost an active view that it is better that people in authority do not know how to do their job.)

Re: They Thought They Were Free: The Germans, 1933-45 (1955)

#229
post #182

Earlier quoted context omitted.

sure, making the government smaller is basically the same as putting the government in control of everything.

Is this admin making the government smaller? So far they are expanding power, firing dissents and trying to reduce spending to humanitarian causes and education, to expand its hegemony, to agitate allies. They even attempt to increase means of incarceration. But there’s no attempt to decentralize power.

> government smaller

I'd also emphasize that a dictator is smaller than a Congress, but not better, and "fewer written rules" can easily conflict with "more freedom for individuals."

Just imagine if the many state laws concerning crimes and misdemeanors were torn up in favor of "don't piss off the police." Sure, it's way shorter, but you've simply replaced the hard-fought written rules (which you have a chance to see, understand, contest, etc.) with hidden unwritten ones that change semi-randomly.

Re: They Thought They Were Free: The Germans, 1933-45 (1955)

#230

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm curious if what is happening in the US and what has happened in Britain with Brexit actually ends up slowing some of these marches towards illiberalism in other places. Like when people are upset at the direction of a country or current policies, they may take a "throw the bums out" attitude even if the alternative is far worse. But perhaps they're looking at the complete shit show in the US and how unproductive…

In the UK, the political party (which is a actually a privately owned company) owned by the guy who drove the initial wave of Brexit is apparently topping the polls now. The only policy they talk about is getting rid of all the immigrants because that's what caused all the problems, not decades of right wing government culminating in Brexit. But underdeath that is the usual US-style Turbo capitalism stuff like destro…

> In the UK, the political party (which is a actually a privately owned company) owned by the guy who drove the initial wave of Brexit is apparently topping the polls now.

Oh god. There I was thinking it couldn't get worse and hoping you'd made a mistake, but no, you're right, somehow it is.

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