They Thought They Were Free: The Germans, 1933-45 (1955) • Hacker News Board

Re: They Thought They Were Free: The Germans, 1933-45 (1955)

#181

Post by gambiting » Wed, Feb 05, 2025, 9:32 AM UTC

asdasdsddd wrote: post #161

gambiting wrote: post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>>We are literally going into a deficit to send money to other countries. Do you realize how insane that is? You mean the international development fund that's being raided right now? You know that it exists because US realized that it's cheaper(as in - LESS money spent overall) to help countries develop, so that US is less likely to engage militarily with whatever conflict happens in those countries eventually? It's…

> so that US is less likely to engage militarily with whatever conflict happens in those coutries eventually Or you know, we can stop getting into wars? Did our adventures in the middle east advance US interests? > It's part of being a global hagemony It's called overextension and almost every historical power declined due to internal rot coupled by continuously getting into conflicts, which, wouldn't you know, drain…

>>Or you know, we can stop getting into wars?

Ah yes, "just stop". I mean, but all means - please do.

>> Did our adventures in the middle east advance US interests?

They made a few american corporations extremely rich and justified balooning the military expenditure. Whether that's in US interests or not - you decide.

>>It's called overextension

It's part of projecting your might as a superpower. The same reason why American taxpayers are paying billions of dollars to station troops in Eastern European countries - not out of charity but because it's explicitly in American interests to do so. International Aid is the same - "we're giving you money now so that we don't have to spend more money fighting with/against you(cross out one) in the future". "stop getting into wars" has the same energy as "just stop tipping" or "just stop spending so much money on the military" - imagine how quickly your entire national debt would be wiped out if you did that!

Re: They Thought They Were Free: The Germans, 1933-45 (1955)

#182

Post by dgb23 » Wed, Feb 05, 2025, 9:35 AM UTC

subsistence234 wrote: post #90

noduerme wrote: post #73

"The Germans" is an absolutely jaw dropping read, a series of interviews with average German citizens and low-level nazi party members, conducted a decade or so after the war, by an American Jewish journalist. It shows, in first hand accounts, the banality of evil and how easily it can prevail if people do nothing. It is an account of modern tyranny and everyday collaboration. The parallels in the feeling of what's h…

sure, making the government smaller is basically the same as putting the government in control of everything.

Is this admin making the government smaller?

So far they are expanding power, firing dissents and trying to reduce spending to humanitarian causes and education, to expand its hegemony, to agitate allies. They even attempt to increase means of incarceration.

But there’s no attempt to decentralize power.

Re: They Thought They Were Free: The Germans, 1933-45 (1955)

#183

Post by lmm » Wed, Feb 05, 2025, 9:37 AM UTC

handoflixue wrote: post #77

BytesAndGears wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Edit: thanks for all of the replies, I’m questioning my framing here now due to some smart people’s thoughts.. I suggest reading the full thread, as there are some interesting comments. I see the obvious parallels to Trump, and I agree completely (and hate that it is happening). But I feel like I also see a lot of parallels to the democrats. Deciding Kamala would be the candidate without any public vote, for example.…

> Deciding Kamala would be the candidate without any public vote, for example. I have never really understood this parallel. What laws got broken, there?

No laws were broken. But it's very much in line with what the article is talking about:

> What happened here was the gradual habituation of the people, little by little, to being governed by surprise; to receiving decisions deliberated in secret; to believing that the situation was so complicated that the government had to act on information which the people could not understand, or so dangerous that, even if the people could not understand it, it could not be released because of national security.

Re: They Thought They Were Free: The Germans, 1933-45 (1955)

#184

Post by gwd » Wed, Feb 05, 2025, 9:38 AM UTC

block_dagger wrote: post #150

guelo wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

trump really doesn't care about the bounds set by congress or anyone else

In a functioning government, it shouldn’t matter if the president cares or not. The limits on each branch should be enforceable and enforced.

In a functioning democracy, the guardrails last until the person trying to break them leaves office, and then that person is not elected again; and if they break laws in office, they are convicted of them.

Laws of nature don't care what you believe: if everyone in the country thinks COVID is a myth, that won't stop COVID from killing people.

Human laws -- "What is the law?" or "Who is the king?" aren't like that. Human laws literally are, "What everyone thinks is true". The chiefs at USAID told Musk he couldn't have access. The President told the chiefs they were fired. The chiefs believed themselves to be fired, so they were fired.

What else could they have done? They could have called the police or the FBI, and reported illegal attempted access of classified systems. The police could have then arrested Musk or his people (or at least threatened to do so). But would they have done so? Wouldn't they have reasonably believed that such behavior would lead to their losing their jobs?

Maybe in 2016 they would have believed that allowing access to classified materials would eventually land them in hot water, and that standing up to the president would eventually lead to them being vindicated. But not now -- any reasonable person now would predict that standing up to the president would lead to them being fired (and possibly have other vindictive punishiments applied), with no recourse; while giving in would certainly be overlooked.

The People voted to re-elect a known authoritarian with no respect for the rule of law or democracy. I don't see how any democratic system can withstand that.

Re: They Thought They Were Free: The Germans, 1933-45 (1955)

#185

Post by pjc50 » Wed, Feb 05, 2025, 9:39 AM UTC

hn_throwaway_99 wrote: post #38

pagutierrezn wrote: post #19

To make matters worse, this is not only "rehappening" in the US. It's global

I'm curious if what is happening in the US and what has happened in Britain with Brexit actually ends up slowing some of these marches towards illiberalism in other places. Like when people are upset at the direction of a country or current policies, they may take a "throw the bums out" attitude even if the alternative is far worse. But perhaps they're looking at the complete shit show in the US and how unproductive…

Wait until you have the Liz Truss budget. That's going to be economic chaos.

Re: They Thought They Were Free: The Germans, 1933-45 (1955)

#186

Post by joakimbr » Wed, Feb 05, 2025, 9:39 AM UTC

_kava wrote: post #78

kzrdude wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are protests planned for today (Wednesday) across the US

Honestly, what would these protests do? Serious question. Let say you manage to achieve the unthinkable and bring a huge amount of people on the street, heck let say you are so successful that you also get a full on national strike going, what then? Do you think it would affect those in charge right now? He would not care. He is already ruining the US economy and alliances. Why would he care if some people he does no…

A successful protest with a large turnout shows people that they are not alone with these opinions. This instills confidence so that they dare to act "rightfully" later on.

Re: They Thought They Were Free: The Germans, 1933-45 (1955)

#187

Post by soco » Wed, Feb 05, 2025, 9:40 AM UTC

Waterluvian wrote: post #173

ookblah wrote: post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

i don't even want to give people that benefit at this point. used to think that it was education, circumstances, outside forces, culture, etc. like "if only" we had XYZ then we can prevent this. at this point i just want to call it "stupidity". not even a left vs right thing. there exists a subset of the population that cannot and will not be educated or have the ability to reason on a certain level to make things wo…

> there exists a subset of the population that cannot and will not be educated or have the ability to reason on a certain level to make things work. I have absolutely no evidence to support this (but I would welcome any for or against it), but I have a loose theory that there is pretty much always a subset of people who are physiologically predisposed to be driven by a fear response more than the average person, and…

And with the social media of today, they also got a performant platform for wider and broader congregation, with the effects that we see.

Re: They Thought They Were Free: The Germans, 1933-45 (1955)

#188

Post by pjc50 » Wed, Feb 05, 2025, 9:40 AM UTC

ZeroGravitas wrote: post #121

hn_throwaway_99 wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm curious if what is happening in the US and what has happened in Britain with Brexit actually ends up slowing some of these marches towards illiberalism in other places. Like when people are upset at the direction of a country or current policies, they may take a "throw the bums out" attitude even if the alternative is far worse. But perhaps they're looking at the complete shit show in the US and how unproductive…

In the UK, the political party (which is a actually a privately owned company) owned by the guy who drove the initial wave of Brexit is apparently topping the polls now. The only policy they talk about is getting rid of all the immigrants because that's what caused all the problems, not decades of right wing government culminating in Brexit. But underdeath that is the usual US-style Turbo capitalism stuff like destro…

Reform is such a corporate op. It's so obviously astroturf .. but the media are also astroturfing it, because the hate for immigrants is universal.

Re: They Thought They Were Free: The Germans, 1933-45 (1955)

#189

Post by dgb23 » Wed, Feb 05, 2025, 9:40 AM UTC

subsistence234 wrote: post #116

palmotea wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> sure, making the government smaller is basically the same as putting the government in control of everything. Come on. A "hostile takeover and dismantling of our democracy" is completely orthogonal to the size of government, before or after the takeover.

How do you clean up a corrupt organization?

Bernie Sanders has been trying to tell you this since I can count.

Corruption is fought by cutting off external, financial influence and lobbying and by putting the voters front and center.

It is however _not_ fought by firing and going after dissents, pardoning violent extremists, stepping over the separation of power.

Re: They Thought They Were Free: The Germans, 1933-45 (1955)

#190

Post by yodsanklai » Wed, Feb 05, 2025, 9:41 AM UTC

noduerme wrote: post #73

"The Germans" is an absolutely jaw dropping read, a series of interviews with average German citizens and low-level nazi party members, conducted a decade or so after the war, by an American Jewish journalist. It shows, in first hand accounts, the banality of evil and how easily it can prevail if people do nothing. It is an account of modern tyranny and everyday collaboration. The parallels in the feeling of what's h…

In France, I remember we read several classic allegories on that theme at schools. Rhinoceros by Ionesco (even watched it in the theater as a school trip), also The Plague (Albert Camus). I didn't think much of it when I was a teenager, but I'm looking at them on the light of these recent events. Especially Rhinoceros on ideological contagion.