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OpenAI says it has evidence DeepSeek used its model to train competitor

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Re: OpenAI says it has evidence DeepSeek used its model to train competitor

#171

Post by kobalsky »

sho_hn wrote: post #49

While I'm as amused as everyone else - I think it's technically accurate to point out that the "we trained it for $6 mio" narrative is contingent on the done investment by others.

OpenAI has been in a war-room for days searching for a match in the data, and they just came out with this without providing proof.

My cynical opinion is that the traning corpus has some small amount of data generated by OpenAI, which is probably impossible to avoid at this point, and they are hanging on that thread for dear life.

Re: OpenAI says it has evidence DeepSeek used its model to train competitor

#172

Post by rchaud »

Keyframe wrote: post #114
jasoneckert wrote: post #20

What I find the most comical about this is that the whole situation could be loosely summarized as "OpenAI is losing its job to AI."

also, China doing in IP what it's better at and way more experienced than USA - stealing.

This kind of blithe commentary is 20 years out of date and reminiscent of 1970s criticisms of the Japanese car industry.

Re: OpenAI says it has evidence DeepSeek used its model to train competitor

#173

Post by JumpCrisscross »

bloomingkales wrote: post #144
stackghost wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

I personally love this chef's kiss of a flip flop sam did here: https://blog.samaltman.com/trump https://www.reddit.com/r/YAPms/comments/1i7ry5m/sam_altman_g... Only a truly talented piece of shit can be as prolific as this. "He is irresponsible in the way dictators are." Chef's kiss. Edit: Kids, don't aspire to be like Altman. We as a community need to espouse more values than tech is gonna tech .

> don't aspire to be like Altman

And don’t aspire to be like those who saw what he is but made peace with it in exchange for silver.

Re: OpenAI says it has evidence DeepSeek used its model to train competitor

#174

Post by insane_dreamer »

Usually I'm very much on the side of protecting America's interests from China, but in this case I'm so disgusted with OpenAI and the rest of BigTech driving this "arms race" that I'd be happy with them burning to the ground.

So we're going to reverse our goals to reduce emissions and fossil fuels in order to hopefully save future generations from the worst effects of climate change, in the name of being able to do what, exactly, that is actually benefiting humanity? Boost corporate profits by reducing labor?

Re: OpenAI says it has evidence DeepSeek used its model to train competitor

#175

Post by wrasee »

tedivm wrote: post #136
pen2l wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While all of this is true, that DeepSeek wouldn't be here were it not for the research that preceded it notably Google's paper, then Llama, and ChatGPT which they're modeled after, its release still did something profound to their psyche, the motivation and self-actualization this instills to the Chinese. They witnessed the power of their accomplishments: a side-hustle project knocked off an easy trillion. This is on…

OpenAI wouldn't be here without the work that Yann Lecun did at Facebook (back when it was facebook). Science is built on top of science, that's just how things work.

Yes, but in science you reference your work and credit those who came before you.

Edit: I am not defending OpenAI and we are all enjoying the irony here. But it puts into perspective some of the wilder claims circulating that DeekSeek was able to somehow complete with OpenAI for only $5M, as if on a level playing field.

Re: OpenAI says it has evidence DeepSeek used its model to train competitor

#176

Post by nicce »

pen2l wrote: post #126
semking wrote: post #21

This is absolutely hilarious! :) ClosedAI scraped human content without asking and they explained why this was acceptable... but when the outputs of their training corpus is scraped, it is THEIR dataset and this is NOT acceptable! Oh, the irony! :D I shared a few screenshots of DeepSeek answering using ChatGPT's output in yesterday's article! https://semking.com/deepseek-china-ai-model-breakthrough-sec...

While all of this is true, that DeepSeek wouldn't be here were it not for the research that preceded it notably Google's paper, then Llama, and ChatGPT which they're modeled after, its release still did something profound to their psyche, the motivation and self-actualization this instills to the Chinese. They witnessed the power of their accomplishments: a side-hustle project knocked off an easy trillion. This is on…

We wouldn't be here discussing if nobody invented internet... nor these models had training data at all.

> Separately, I do think that now that the Chinese leadership saw this, that they have the chops to pull this off and then some, they are probably going to rein in future innovations; they'll likely demand that the big future discoveries remain closed-sourced (or even unannounced/unpublicized).

How do we know that this is not already happening with OpenAI/Meta and the U.S. government at some level? The concept of power is equal, whether we wanted it or not. We don't have to pretend to be "better" all the time.

Re: OpenAI says it has evidence DeepSeek used its model to train competitor

#177

Post by daft_pink »

This reminds me of the railroads, where once railroads were invented, there was a huge investment boom of eveyrone trying to make money of the railroads, but the competition brought the costs down where the railroads weren’t the people who generally made the money and got the benefit, but the consumers and regular businesses did and competition caused many to fail.

AI is probably similar where the Moore’s law and advancement will eventually allow people to run open models locally and bring down the cost of operation. Competiition will make it hard for all but one or two players to survive and Nvidia, OpenAI, Deepseek, etc most investments in AI by these large companies will fail to generate substantial wealth but maybe earn some sort of return or maybe not.

Re: OpenAI says it has evidence DeepSeek used its model to train competitor

#178

Post by jacobgorm »

cscurmudgeon wrote: post #165
semking wrote: post #21

This is absolutely hilarious! :) ClosedAI scraped human content without asking and they explained why this was acceptable... but when the outputs of their training corpus is scraped, it is THEIR dataset and this is NOT acceptable! Oh, the irony! :D I shared a few screenshots of DeepSeek answering using ChatGPT's output in yesterday's article! https://semking.com/deepseek-china-ai-model-breakthrough-sec...

Scraping data is different from scraping outputs from a model.

No it is not, data is data, whether it gets loaded from a file on disk or generated by multiplying lots of matrices.

Re: OpenAI says it has evidence DeepSeek used its model to train competitor

#179

Post by galleywest200 »

ceejayoz wrote: post #55
amelius wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why? When did large companies care about laws? See e.g. Uber, AirBnb. The only thing government cares about at this point is if information is shared with China.

They care when they get big enough to attract attention from people like state AGs who can actually put the hurt on a bit. Uber and AirBnB both hit this point years ago; OpenAI's starting to hit it.

Altman is part of that Stargate Trump group now. He and his ilk will just get pardons.

Curious, though, can a corporation be pardoned?

Re: OpenAI says it has evidence DeepSeek used its model to train competitor

#180

Post by turtlesdown11 »

thorum wrote: post #125

> “It is (relatively) easy to copy something that you know works,” Altman tweeted. “It is extremely hard to do something new, risky, and difficult when you don’t know if it will work.” The humor/hypocrisy of the situation aside, it does seem to be true that OpenAI is consistently the one coming up with new ideas first (GPT 4, o1, 4o-style multimodality, voice chat, DALL-E, …) and then other companies reproduce their…

> other companies reproduce their work, and get more credit because they actually publish the research.

I don't understand, you mean OpenAI isn't releasing open models and openly publishing their research?

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