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USA restricts Swiss access to AI computer chips

bluewin.ch

101–110 of 141 posts

Re: USA restricts Swiss access to AI computer chips

#101
> US President Donald Trump has also announced that the USA will not introduce the global minimum tax. Corporations are the legal structure

Well well well, who'd have thought!

3 months ago on "Italy stiffens terms of digital services tax in 2025 budget":

> I thought this was what was being implemented to fix that -> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_minimum_corporate_tax_r...

> You can sit around and wait for decades until this might get meaningfully implemented, loopholes get closed and enforcement is strict. Great step by Italy to refuse that and just implement a measure in the meantime. Can always be repealed if indeed things get fixed on a global level.

[1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41942974

Re: USA restricts Swiss access to AI computer chips

#102
post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It doesn't even matter at this point. As evidenced by DeepSeek. A growing portion of the world is distancing themselves from the west, and It's a good thing. People should have the ability to choose who they do business with without a third party strongarming them.

Can you please explain to me why AI chips don't matters anymore because of DeepSeek? I thought it was just a better model, but perhaps I didn't get it?

It's not that they matter anymore.

But there has been a long term suspicion in the AI community that the ultra expensive to compute and very expensive to run humongous LLM approach is a dead end, or at lest fully unnecessary (and as such monetary wise a dead end).

I mean think about it, the target crown jewel of AI was never to find ways to train on insane amounts of data, but to be able to get as good as possible results with only as much data as necessary but no more. Because for a lot of use cases there simply isn't that much data.

And from everything we know the structure of language is not so complex that you need this insane amount of data and model size.

It's just we worked around of problems by throwing more compute and data on it instead of solving them proper. Similar we try to reformulate any little-data use case by reformulating it in a way where we hope to take advantage of the mass "causal text" data modern foundational LLMs where trained on and fine tune and instrument the model using the "little data" of the use case.

But conceptually this is ... sub-par and non desirable. And sure that we made it work with this trickery is quite magnificent.

And sure this huge LLMs do more then encode language, they encode miscellaneous knowledge/data, too.

But a messy, hallucination prone, non properly updateable and potentially outright copyright or privacy law violating encoding of data...

So many systems already do use RAG like approaches to get supply the knowledge in a updateable much more well defined fore and "only" use the LLM to find the right search queries and combine things together into human readable responses.

In turn the moment we have small LLMs which still work well for language structure they likely will very reliable win through a lot of reasons (the ones mentioned above and they are also much cheaper) and that even through they are _way_ more complicated to use then "just prompting a LLM". But most advanced assistants are anyway already way more complicated then "just prompting a LLM".

Or in other words the technical breakthrough anyone (including OpenAI) would like the most (OpenAI: financially, as long as it's an internal secret) is one which eliminates the need for having the latest bleeding edge ML chip tech. And DeepSeek is seen by some as a signal that exactly such a change is going to happen. Also I have heard rumors (which I don't believe) that one reason for OpenAI to go non-open was because they realized that, too. And with cheap to run open models they would lose the competitive benefit of competition not being able to do from scratch training even if they want to.

Re: USA restricts Swiss access to AI computer chips

#103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's in the DeepSeek V3 paper, not the R1 paper. https://arxiv.org/html/2412.19437v1#abstract "assuming the rental price of the H800 GPU is $2 per GPU hour, our total training costs amount to only $5.576M." Note that's for V3, the base model; we don't know how much extra R1 cost to train.

I see. Thank for the source. So all the claims of DeepSeek R1's cost [0] is indeed bullshit parroted around... [0]: https://www.google.com/search?q=deepseek+r1+training+cost

Not really; R1 is post-training on top of V3, which is considerably cheaper than training V3 itself. You can see this in the existence of multiple reproductions of the RL training technique by much smaller labs: https://hkust-nlp.notion.site/simplerl-reason

Re: USA restricts Swiss access to AI computer chips

#104
post #50
post #38

is this somehow linked to greenland ?

This was a Biden administration decision. The new administration will probably do worst.

Switzerland had much better relations with the US under the Trump administration (especially thanks to the very friendly ambassador) than under the Biden administration (with a new, very hostile ambassador).

They started talks about a free trade agreement under Trump, which was frozen under Biden.

Re: USA restricts Swiss access to AI computer chips

#105
post #2

Do the Swiss want to be considered someone's ally or neutral?

I'm just one Swiss guy but here's my two cents... Are you asking in a war-related scenario or about regular non-wartime trade? I think the "we trade with allies only"-rhetoric makes the discussion sound much more martial than the trade-related language Switzerland would have expected (notice how the Swiss response only uses economic and commercial terms). Totally understandable if either country was at war or the products in question were directly arms-related. But as it stands, moving the discussion from CH buying AI-chips to military neutrality feels a bit besides the point from a Swiss perspective.

So to your question, I think Switzerland wants to be considered as: someone's trade partner, generally yes (or maybe we call it "trade allies" now?), but not someone's potential ally in war. Military neutrality has always been the number one principle in the Swiss Confederation's foreign relations. If this now is supposed to be an unspoken economic sanction against Switzerland then is the message behind it: "Hey everyone, be our military ally or have nothing to do with us"..?

Re: USA restricts Swiss access to AI computer chips

#106
post #98
post #11

This restriction makes no sense. The US says "18 countries may purchase our AI chips", but what I understand is "90% of the world may purchase Chinese AI chips". China just needs to infiltrate Taiwan, which is geographically and culturally closer than the US.

What does Taiwan have to do with this? Because it’s a US ally China could get GPUs through Taiwan if china invaded Taiwan? Maybe old ones if this is what you are saying.

Most bleeding edge chip manufacturing is currently done in Taiwan, Taiwan has both the machinery and know how to produce state of the art AI training chips. And while they are not quite at NVIDIAs knowledge about chip design by far the largest source of performance differences between NVIDIA and China based completion is the manufacturing not the design (which still is better, but not to the margin where it's not something you can somewhat "good enough" bridge by "throwing more money and (electric)power at it", for the manufacturing differences on the other hand "throwing money/(electric)power at it" to bridge the gap isn't viable. The difference is to big.).

Through then if we are realistic both Taiwan and the US did take measurements to make sure the even if China attacks Taiwan and wins they aren't getting their hands on this tech.

Except Taiwan would have been not very clever if they didn't try to find ways to work around this, so that they are a lever to negotiate in case the US abandons them... (it's unclear if they did find ways tho).

Re: USA restricts Swiss access to AI computer chips

#107
post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Half of the US media portrays half of the country as neo-Hitlers for being slightly more critical of immigration than their neighbors. We generally have one of the most open borders, relatively straightforward legal immigration paths and more than twice as many Green Card holders than Denmark has people. We also, at least for the moment, still have unrestricted birthright citizenship, a policy pretty much no countrie…

You have the added problem of 1% of them actually being neo-nazis.

Sure. Racism never died. The problem is when you lump a bunch of people who don’t deserve it in with the actual Neo-Nazis and paint them with an extremely broad brush as all of the same kind. If you look for Nazis, you can find them, but if you simply see Nazis everywhere, you don’t even have to look.

Re: USA restricts Swiss access to AI computer chips

#108
post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Being from Denmark I have always been puzzled by how US/UK media portray us as neo-Hitlers for being slightly more critical of MENA immigration than our neighbors. Meanwhile Switzerland has been doing what almost amounts to white-only immigration to the point that their "troublesome" immigrants are Europeans from Albanaia and Serbia. Neutrality is good for PR.

> to the point that their "troublesome" immigrants are Europeans from France and Italy Depending on the canton, it is virtually impossible to become a Swiss citizen, even if you are married to a Swiss national and have been resident for ten years.

That's not true. If you are married to a Swiss, it's easy: https://www.eda.admin.ch/countries/china/en/home/services/ci...

Also, otherwise, it's easy but not automated. Lots of foreigners get a Swiss passport every year.

Re: USA restricts Swiss access to AI computer chips

#109
post #49
post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a bit of a nieve view and I also get the sentiment you think taxes are some kind of punishment. Taxes are a charge on running the country and infrastructure good enough so that your business can profit and enhance an economy. If you think compabies are being taxed too much then you don't grasp how much profits they're actually making. And how much of the countries resource and infrastructure they take up.

I don't think you have gotten the sentiment at all. How did you get from what I wrote to seeing taxes as a form of punishment?

I guess the comparison to drinking a poison and having to not work, which sounds like you think that taxes are damaging. Taxes are the whip part of the monetary system, that compels everybody to work significantly more than they would otherwise, and which is behind the good things that you attribute to corporations.

Re: USA restricts Swiss access to AI computer chips

#110
post #91

Switzerland restricts access to its own allies of weapons that it sold to other countries because of internal concerns about how that could affect the country in the future. This seems to be at least partially similar to that. At this point AI could absolutely be considered potentially threatening in the future.

> Switzerland restricts access to its own allies of weapons that it sold to other countries because of internal concerns about how that could affect the country in the future.

This is regarding resale, right? IIRC pretty much every country does that?

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