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Allstate used GasBuddy and other apps to track driving behavior: lawsuit

arstechnica.com

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Re: Allstate used GasBuddy and other apps to track driving behavior: lawsuit

#61

Post by IncreasePosts »

AnthonyMouse wrote: post #33
IncreasePosts wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That would only be true if people could expect multiple insurance events over their life time. But, if the expected time to an insurance payout for a good driver is longer than their life time, then good drivers will never have enough money in their account to cover an accident that occurs.

If you had a perfectly accurate crystal ball and the number of accidents you would have in your lifetime is zero then your account wouldn't need to have any money in it.

Well now you're just saying know the future, which is different than knowing an individual drivers probability of an accident.

Re: Allstate used GasBuddy and other apps to track driving behavior: lawsuit

#62

Post by BikiniPrince »

whatever1 wrote: post #3

Folks your emergency button we all have in our cars (onstar) that supposedly calls 911 in case of an accident (they don’t unless you pay the subscription) they just sell all the gps to data brokers.

For older cars the telematics module might not even function. The phase out of legacy cellular networks will clean out some of this monitoring. Disabling the telematics module isn’t even difficult and it’s easily accessible in my vehicle.

Re: Allstate used GasBuddy and other apps to track driving behavior: lawsuit

#63

Post by StackRanker3000 »

cossatot wrote: post #43
airstrike wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's the same as putting it in a piggy bank, isn't it? Or even better in a fixed income account.

No, because the amount of money you have in a bank account accumulates linearly, so you can only pay up to what you have put in. With insurance, you can get a payout more than what you have contributed up to that point, which is necessary for covering catastrophic damages.

But in this hypothetical the insurance company has perfect information, so they won’t sell you that policy that has to be paid out for more than you’ve contributed.

It’s just a thought experiment, but the more information they have on us, the more relevant it becomes.

Re: Allstate used GasBuddy and other apps to track driving behavior: lawsuit

#64

Post by AnarchismIsCool »

whatever1 wrote: post #3

Folks your emergency button we all have in our cars (onstar) that supposedly calls 911 in case of an accident (they don’t unless you pay the subscription) they just sell all the gps to data brokers.

50ohm resistor go brrrrrrr

It is intensely frustrating that you need to be an aero embedded remote sensing SWE to defeat all this bullshit though. It used to be that having a basic knowledge of javascript was sufficient.

Re: Allstate used GasBuddy and other apps to track driving behavior: lawsuit

#65

Post by caminante »

ziddoap wrote: post #34
rdtsc wrote: post #15

> The suit also cites Allstate as gathering direct car use data from Toyota, Lexus, Mazda, Chrysler, Dodge, Fiat, Jeep, Maserati, and Ram vehicles. Seems like the bigger part of the story is at the bottom. You can uninstall GasBuddy from your phone but finding and buying a new car that doesn't track you is a bigger hassle.

I like to post this investigation by Mozilla's "Privacy Not Included" whenever car privacy comes up, because it is actually horrendous. https://foundation.mozilla.org/en/blog/privacy-nightmare-on-... > Mozilla’s latest edition of Privacy Not Included reveals how 25 major car brands collect and share deeply personal data, including sexual activity, facial expressions, and genetic and health information

Sex?

How do they triangulate that from car telemetry?...blood pressure/heart rate signatures from face? Suspension rocking in a park at night? Maybe they pull it from your phone.

I don't trust the manufacturers, but Kia seems to have said they have the right to collect sex info, but haven't. [0]

> “To clarify, Kia does not and has never collected “sex life or sexual orientation” information from vehicles or consumers in the context of providing the Kia Connect Services.”

[0] https://nypost.com/2023/09/06/nissan-kia-collect-data-about-...

Re: Allstate used GasBuddy and other apps to track driving behavior: lawsuit

#66

Post by bkberry352 »

StackRanker3000 wrote: post #49
hatsunearu wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you actually have a tracking system like this (a lot of insurance companies will offer it), you'll find the bar for unsafe driving is ridiculously low. The truth is insurance agencies always want to find a reason to increase your premiums, because the law says you can't just increase the premiums for no reason. Most premiums are lower than what it "needs" to be, so if they find an excuse, they will jack up the pre…

How does that work in practice? Do insurers have to share their models with the regulator?

Yes, models have to be shared with regulators and the regulators have to be convinced that the premiums insurers wish to charge are actuarially justified (supported by the data).

Re: Allstate used GasBuddy and other apps to track driving behavior: lawsuit

#68

Post by lotsofpulp »

throw5959 wrote: post #52
ziddoap wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I like to post this investigation by Mozilla's "Privacy Not Included" whenever car privacy comes up, because it is actually horrendous. https://foundation.mozilla.org/en/blog/privacy-nightmare-on-... > Mozilla’s latest edition of Privacy Not Included reveals how 25 major car brands collect and share deeply personal data, including sexual activity, facial expressions, and genetic and health information

Huh, how? Why would someone have a vehicle with someone else's internet connected camera inside?

Why would society not mandate cameras to make sure the operators of thousands of kilograms of metal at high speeds are paying attention to the road instead of their phone? And to be able to punish them if they are not.

Assuming pedestrian and children’s safety is a priority.

Re: Allstate used GasBuddy and other apps to track driving behavior: lawsuit

#69

Post by bkberry352 »

myself248 wrote: post #32

> "whether a consumer picked up or opened their phone while traveling at certain speeds," Presumably without asking whether they were a passenger at the time. Meaning that people who carpool are penalized by this practice...

The apps allow you to mark the trips on which you were a passenger and those aren't counted

Re: Allstate used GasBuddy and other apps to track driving behavior: lawsuit

#70

Post by dghlsakjg »

ceejayoz wrote: post #56
dghlsakjg wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They make a profit on investing the float that offsets their underwriting loss. I never claimed that insurance companies aren't profitable. I said that their insurance is a money loser. If you look at their financial statements you can see that they have been losing billions on underwriting for years https://www.allstateinvestors.com/static-files/d61a8007-647a...

But... they don't have money to invest without the insurance premiums coming in. My family finances look a lot worse if you exclude interest and investment proceeds at random from the analysis, too. $10-20B profit annually is not something I'd describe as "in the hole". The "hole" is overflowing with money.

If you keep selling a product for $95 that costs you $100 to deliver you will be "in the hole" on that product line. For Allstate, that product line is insurance.

If you invest that $95, get a $15 dollar return, and then deliver the $100 product, you have made a net profit even though you sold the product for below cost. You are still in the hole for the insurance product no matter how you slice it.

Yes, I get that the insurance product is what allows them to invest the float. But any accountant can tell you that they are in the hole on that product.

They are still selling the product at a loss, even if their time arbitrage lets them make money elsewhere. Its kind of magic in that its a win/win scenario in what looks like a zero sum game. The point is that people think that insurance companies make money off of them paying a premium higher than what they will recover in claims, and saying that insurance is always a bad deal for the consumer. My point is that isn't true. Insurance companies pay out more in underwriting costs than they collect in premiums. Insurance is very frequently and insanely good deal in aggregate.

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