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Allstate used GasBuddy and other apps to track driving behavior: lawsuit

arstechnica.com

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Re: Allstate used GasBuddy and other apps to track driving behavior: lawsuit

#31

Post by IncreasePosts »

ryandrake wrote: post #23
barbazoo wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They do pay higher premiums but that might not be enough to pay for a claim. The economics are often such that you price low risk drivers to subsidize higher risk drivers if realistically pricing the high risk drivers is not economical, i.e. would lead to losing business. It's a balance.

As another commenter pointed out, if insurance companies had a crystal ball and could perfectly predict each customer's probably of having an accident, and charged them an individualized rate based on future payouts, then we would not need insurance. You could just put those premiums in a savings account and pay for the accident(s) when they happen. The whole point of insurance is it's a shared risk pool. Arguments l…

That would only be true if people could expect multiple insurance events over their life time.

But, if the expected time to an insurance payout for a good driver is longer than their life time, then good drivers will never have enough money in their account to cover an accident that occurs.

Re: Allstate used GasBuddy and other apps to track driving behavior: lawsuit

#33

Post by AnthonyMouse »

IncreasePosts wrote: post #31
ryandrake wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As another commenter pointed out, if insurance companies had a crystal ball and could perfectly predict each customer's probably of having an accident, and charged them an individualized rate based on future payouts, then we would not need insurance. You could just put those premiums in a savings account and pay for the accident(s) when they happen. The whole point of insurance is it's a shared risk pool. Arguments l…

That would only be true if people could expect multiple insurance events over their life time. But, if the expected time to an insurance payout for a good driver is longer than their life time, then good drivers will never have enough money in their account to cover an accident that occurs.

If you had a perfectly accurate crystal ball and the number of accidents you would have in your lifetime is zero then your account wouldn't need to have any money in it.

Re: Allstate used GasBuddy and other apps to track driving behavior: lawsuit

#34

Post by ziddoap »

rdtsc wrote: post #15

> The suit also cites Allstate as gathering direct car use data from Toyota, Lexus, Mazda, Chrysler, Dodge, Fiat, Jeep, Maserati, and Ram vehicles. Seems like the bigger part of the story is at the bottom. You can uninstall GasBuddy from your phone but finding and buying a new car that doesn't track you is a bigger hassle.

I like to post this investigation by Mozilla's "Privacy Not Included" whenever car privacy comes up, because it is actually horrendous.

https://foundation.mozilla.org/en/blog/privacy-nightmare-on-...

>Mozilla’s latest edition of Privacy Not Included reveals how 25 major car brands collect and share deeply personal data, including sexual activity, facial expressions, and genetic and health information

Re: Allstate used GasBuddy and other apps to track driving behavior: lawsuit

#36

Post by dghlsakjg »

ceejayoz wrote: post #26
dghlsakjg wrote: post #14

This is your friendly reminder that the insurance industry does not generally make money on underwriting. In other words they are losing money on insuring you. Typically the costs of the insurance side of the business are greater than their revenue from premiums. This typically means that insurance actually is a good deal on net. They make their money on investing the float. They can only do that if they attract prem…

Allstate appears to have made a profit for ~14 of the last 15 years. https://www.macrotrends.net/stocks/charts/ALL/allstate/net-i...

They make a profit on investing the float that offsets their underwriting loss. I never claimed that insurance companies aren't profitable. I said that their insurance is a money loser.

If you look at their financial statements you can see that they have been losing billions on underwriting for years https://www.allstateinvestors.com/static-files/d61a8007-647a...

Re: Allstate used GasBuddy and other apps to track driving behavior: lawsuit

#37

Post by _DeadFred_ »

nyrikki wrote: post #30
rs999gti wrote: post #5

This is Allstate, the house, trying to maintain their edge over their customers, the players. If they get additional info that tells them you are an unsafe driver, then their odds of you not getting into an accident diminish and their goes their premiums, the bets. Yah yah insurance reduces risks instead of adding it like gambling, but the analogies are still there.

No, the inference they have isn't reliable enough to predict anything except with broad groups. Swerving to avoid road debris or hard braking to avoid a deer as examples of what have cost commercial drivers jobs. Look at the CDL world for a view into this. I have 30 years of clean driving records BTW, so not trying to justify risky driving BTW

This is how all the tech bro mass management of people systems work. Do away with any customer service, throw away randos impacted by any situations outside the norm because your system is large enough to keep the needed critical mass even without those people. Scale over nuanced edge cases to minimize cost/friction/complexity.

The future world will become more and more brittle/brutal for us randos because we are 100% disposable in the future tech bro libertarian dystopia. If any situation puts us outside their standard use cases and automated support systems ability to resolve issues we are purged from the system. And when all of society is manage by those types of systems you are hit.

Re: Allstate used GasBuddy and other apps to track driving behavior: lawsuit

#38

Post by bkberry352 »

ceejayoz wrote: post #26
dghlsakjg wrote: post #14

This is your friendly reminder that the insurance industry does not generally make money on underwriting. In other words they are losing money on insuring you. Typically the costs of the insurance side of the business are greater than their revenue from premiums. This typically means that insurance actually is a good deal on net. They make their money on investing the float. They can only do that if they attract prem…

Allstate appears to have made a profit for ~14 of the last 15 years. https://www.macrotrends.net/stocks/charts/ALL/allstate/net-i...

That's for the corporation as a whole and counts the net of investment profits and insurance losses. If you open their earnings release, you can see combined ratios over 100%, indicating that the total cost of operating the insurance is negative, but this is offset by investment profits (as the original commenter mentioned - they make money off the float).

Re: Allstate used GasBuddy and other apps to track driving behavior: lawsuit

#39

Post by _DeadFred_ »

Scoundreller wrote: post #13
wbl wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I like it when unsafe drivers pay the costs of the way they endanger all of us.

Once insurance companies can charge perfect premiums, there will be no point in buying insurance at all.

Time for a credit union version of insurance coverage.

Re: Allstate used GasBuddy and other apps to track driving behavior: lawsuit

#40

Post by fn-mote »

miohtama wrote: post #4

It makes sense to share your data with an insurance provider if you are a well-behaved driver. It is well-behaved drivers that subside the insurance cost of reckless drivers.

> It makes sense to share your data with an insurance provider if you are a well-behaved driver.

I would like to see evidence of this.

My experience: discount for sharing is low, maybe $100/year.

My expectation: if I actually get in an accident (1) the data I shared will be used against me; (2) my insurance provider will put me in a high risk pool or drop me.

It seems to me that the downside is really high and the upside is not.

Is that wrong?

P.S. If I actually had faith in all of the companies involved, I would certainly agree with the parent. However, I don't.

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