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43K fewer drivers on Manhattan roads after congestion pricing turned on

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Re: 43K fewer drivers on Manhattan roads after congestion pricing turned on

#181

Post by signatoremo »

shiroiushi wrote: post #135
Ar-Curunir wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That’s just pure nonsense. Have you been to, like, any major non-American city? People just take public transit, or walk, or, live in downtown

This entire comment section is simultaneously hilarious and sad to read, because it's obviously a bunch of myopic Americans who have never ventured outside of America and have no clue how other cities in the world work. Honestly I try to avoid commenting in forums like this because it's so fruitless: it's just like trying to have a rational discussion about vaccines (or anything really) with a bunch of Trump follower…

Did you know that car ownership in the Netherlands has continued to rise?

This is a blog post of a cycling advocate, from 2019 but still relevant - [0]

Quote:

In 1992, 42% of Dutch households were car-free. By 2016 this had dropped to about a quarter. Car ownership has continued to increase since then. Higher car ownership leads to higher car usage. Almost anyone who can easily afford a car has one and there aren't many people at all who choose to go without if they can afford one: Amongst people of average income, just 12% of households don't have a car and that drops further to just 6% for high income households.

In other words, people choose to own a car if they can afford it, even if they cycle frequently at the same time.

[0] -https://www.aviewfromthecyclepath.com/2019/08/the-car-free-m...

Re: 43K fewer drivers on Manhattan roads after congestion pricing turned on

#182

Post by blackeyeblitzar »

jmward01 wrote: post #38

Roads in cities are such a waste of space. A long time ago I did a quick survey of SF and found something like 20% of the land was dedicated to cars. Some articles from people here that talk about this [1] [2] [3]. That is the most subsidized land on the planet but people don't think of it that way. They think roads are free so any tax to use them is wrong. That space could be helping out the city in so many ways but…

Nah roads are great and cars are great. They let people get around in ways that are much faster than public transit, with your friends and cargo, protected from the weather, without the safety issues, directly to your destination. If you overbuild and create density of inhuman levels, and don’t build adequate road infrastructure, you will have problems. But otherwise, it’s fine and it works very well in cities of low-mid density.

Re: 43K fewer drivers on Manhattan roads after congestion pricing turned on

#183

Post by blackeyeblitzar »

redserk wrote: post #148
dottjt wrote: post #40

I think an issue with this kind of policy (not necessarily in Manhattan) but in other cities is that often there is no alternative other than to drive to the city. For example, my partner needs radiation for her cancer and the hospital is located in the city. There is no other option than to drive. I feel like this type of policy negatively affects people in this situation, with no other alternative.

I think this policy is only feasible in cities with decent public transportation. I’d struggle to list any more than 1-2 other American cities where this could be done though. A lot of cities that do have public transportation seem to have extremely frustrating (i.e. multiple transfers) gaps if you aren’t using the system to-and-from work.

It’s also only feasible if actions like this congestion charge are taken to tilt the scales. Most people would not use public transit if they could avoid it. When there is enough road infrastructure to match the density, private transit is preferred because you can drive directly to your destination, not have public safety issues like on the subway, haul cargo, and do it all quickly. The only way to make public transit attractive is to artificially and maliciously mismanage things to make driving cars slow and expensive. Which frankly is hostile towards people.

Re: 43K fewer drivers on Manhattan roads after congestion pricing turned on

#184

Post by undersuit »

starspangled wrote: post #158
undersuit wrote: post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I hate driving but every time I get on my bicycle I remember how fun it is... until a car starts driving behind me impatient to get somewhere a few seconds faster. I can bike to many places in my town faster than the drivers can drive if I put some effort into pedaling.

I don't mean everybody likes the act of driving, I mean everybody likes what driving [a private vehicle] can do for them. I didn't mean even that in the absolute literal sense either, but anecdotes from people who don't have a car or get driven by friends and never take taxis or uber anywhere would be interesting and will probably help us to understand why virtually everybody likes driving.

I don't think anyone literally likes driving. Some people like racing, some people like drifting. But who the heck likes getting in their car, waiting at stop signs and lights, staring down a road for hours, and wondering whether the oncoming vehicle veering left is going to turn on their turn signal or straighten their path.

Re: 43K fewer drivers on Manhattan roads after congestion pricing turned on

#185

Post by Over2Chars »

bpye wrote: post #177
Over2Chars wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

San Francisco "thought about it" as far back as 2019 and couldn't get their act together to pull it off: https://www.sfcta.org/downtown I'm guessing that Uber and other car based services all threatened to stop funding their re-election campaigns if they did it.

Vancouver, BC is another city that considered it - but the incumbent mayor lost the last election, partly due to the issue.

That's quite unfortunate. I'm sure the voters can contemplate their victory when they're sitting in a traffic jam.

Re: 43K fewer drivers on Manhattan roads after congestion pricing turned on

#186

Post by vlovich123 »

wongarsu wrote: post #101
vlovich123 wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You’re not incorrect per se, but it’s important to note that deliveries into downtown would be important for it to be a thriving destination for shopping, residential or business. Not to mention space for heavy equipment to come in to do repairs and construction. Minimal maintenance corridors may not be enough. You also need public transit options into it as well as transportation solutions for “out of towners” who d…

In any city that isn't hopelessly car-dependent there is some kind of rail to bring in commuters. A subway, tram, light rail, passenger rail, often a combination of all of them. Once you have a stable system to bring in commuters, adding a couple parking lots to stops on the outskirts for "out of towners" is pretty easy. The rest is just about not removing all the streets. You also need enough roads for emergency veh…

Are you sure that’s not a path dependency that’s difficult to undo? Retrofitting this into a place like the Bay Area seems impractical given how bad public transit is there chronically.

Re: 43K fewer drivers on Manhattan roads after congestion pricing turned on

#187

Post by blackeyeblitzar »

rodgerd wrote: post #120
mensetmanusman wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

I am a great deal more risk of being killed by a driver when I walk than I am being murdered on a train. Especially as Waymo program their death machines to blow through pedestrians at crossings 70% of the time.

[flagged]

Re: 43K fewer drivers on Manhattan roads after congestion pricing turned on

#188

Post by occz »

blackeyeblitzar wrote: post #187
rodgerd wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am a great deal more risk of being killed by a driver when I walk than I am being murdered on a train. Especially as Waymo program their death machines to blow through pedestrians at crossings 70% of the time.

[flagged]

42k people in the U.S die per year from being hit by drivers, and far more get injured.

There's no credibility to your statement, whatsoever.

Re: 43K fewer drivers on Manhattan roads after congestion pricing turned on

#189

Post by occz »

mensetmanusman wrote: post #78
jmward01 wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They can have it. I'd rather amazing transit oriented development and to enjoy the world on my feet than stuck in a box on an ugly road. Done right, cities designed for people are harder to get around by car even with a personal driver.

[flagged]

There were a grand total of 50 homicides on U.S transit in 2022. The number of deaths from drivers was 42k that year.

This is not a serious concern, and it's telling of the mindset of drivers in the U.S.

Re: 43K fewer drivers on Manhattan roads after congestion pricing turned on

#190

Post by whatever1 »

BenFranklin100 wrote: post #153
whatever1 wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why not lottery my dude (based on dob, license plate, whatever) ? Didn’t I equally pay for the infrastructure? I would argue that I paid even more than the millionaires, because I cannnot cheat on my taxes.

You paid far less. The top half of American pay almost 98% of federal taxes. The top 10% pay nearly three quarters. The American tax system is very progressive. https://www.cbsnews.com/news/tax-irs-income-taxes-who-pays-t...

You have it wrong. You are grouping in that top 10% the millionaires/billionaires who pay nothing with the 6-figure W2 workhorses who cannot hide anything.
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