Finland's zero homeless strategy (2021) • Hacker News Board

Re: Finland's zero homeless strategy (2021)

#361

Post by yieldcrv » Sat, Jan 11, 2025, 5:37 AM UTC

verteu wrote: post #220

They also do a lot of compulsory psychiatric detention: https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/psychiatric-bulletin... > Finnish mental health legislation takes a medical approach to compulsory measures, emphasising the need for treatment of psychiatric patients over civil liberties concerns... Finland has the highest rates of detention per 100 000 inhabitants, about 214 compared with 93 in the UK and 11 in Italy. >…

Its not a single thing

In San Francisco studies of their populations revealed lots of segments of homeless people

The one that stuck out to me the most was the most distressing: people that were homeless within last 12 months of the study, a huge percent of them were just people that left a relationship. That was a housing price problem.

I knew so many people that had broken up but still living together, and its crazy that the ones on the street were “the strong ones” that actually left

(Since I was not poor and exempt from consequence, I ended that relationship immediately and got a place I actually liked. we had done all the talking I was over it.)

Re: Finland's zero homeless strategy (2021)

#362

Post by jameson » Sat, Jan 11, 2025, 5:55 AM UTC

I wish US implement a similar system but I wonder how its going to work when housing prices are astonomical especially in the Bay Area

Getting paid 250k/yr with 20% downpayment isn't enough to afford a house with 2 kids, so providing a "free" or "afforable" housing to those who aren't currently employees is only going to upset those who are working hard

IMO govn't need to relax the regulation to build more houses and drive the cost down

I completely agree with Finland's approach though. Permanent housing is the minimal requirement to reduce homelessness. Without placed to stay, mailing address, security, it's difficult to get out of homelessness

Re: Finland's zero homeless strategy (2021)

#363

Post by vasco » Sat, Jan 11, 2025, 5:57 AM UTC

mmooss wrote: post #356

vasco wrote: post #354

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Lived in cities all my life, 3 capitals, 2 non capitals, 3 countries. And gave you a personal example of my current local homeless guy, thanks for discounting my lived experience as one says. For your argument to be valid, homeless people and drug addicts would need to be some special breed of human that is much more peaceful than everyone else. I don't demonize them but I also don't think they are angels. And they c…

[flagged]

Regular people have a stigma against the homeless and that perceptions of crime from the homeless are higher than they should be and that's detrimental to help them. That is clear as water. I genuinely think you're trying to just push some perceived overton window and are ending up in a nonsensical argument about nobody being afraid of a whole group of people. And then you say I'm too fearful, which was the opposing argument you made, that nobody ever felt fear. It's like inflammatory rhetoric for it's own sake.

Re: Finland's zero homeless strategy (2021)

#364

Post by SequoiaHope » Sat, Jan 11, 2025, 5:57 AM UTC

wat10000 wrote: post #348

verelo wrote: post #313

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fifty years ago Montreal was the business centre of Canada, now that’s Toronto. That $800 rate might actually be more affordable in a less business oriented city, or even Montreal itself since it’s seen a lot of decline in that time. Having said that, there’s zero debate rents are out of control. I own a triplex and every time a unit turns over and i do my research on rent i get a bit shocked. I’ve found myself legit…

A business center doesn't have to be expensive. That’s made to happen because housing isn’t allowed to be built in sufficient quantity, not a necessary consequence of success.

I think quantity is a valid concern but I also think treating housing as a speculative asset is an issue. Housing serves as a valuable speculative asset precisely because quantity is restricted by a variety of factors, but actually using it as a speculative asset raises prices significantly.

Re: Finland's zero homeless strategy (2021)

#365

Post by [deleted] » Sat, Jan 11, 2025, 6:05 AM UTC

mmooss wrote: post #142

wklm wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Quite an interesting perspective, sadly it’ll likely never get implemented in any capitalistic economy

That rumor is the biggest obstacle. If you believed it was possible, and instead told others it was possible, it might actually be.

[deleted]

Re: Finland's zero homeless strategy (2021)

#366

Post by dragonwriter » Sat, Jan 11, 2025, 6:08 AM UTC

jameson wrote: post #362

I wish US implement a similar system but I wonder how its going to work when housing prices are astonomical especially in the Bay Area Getting paid 250k/yr with 20% downpayment isn't enough to afford a house with 2 kids, so providing a "free" or "afforable" housing to those who aren't currently employees is only going to upset those who are working hard IMO govn't need to relax the regulation to build more houses and…

A key to this strategy is building sufficient numbers of housing units; if you split these between units to be offered in the market (prevention) and units dedicated to permanent housing of the currently unhoused (cure) you bring down costs for people with income seeking housing in the market while providing immediate (as the units become ready, obviously there is a lag from adopting the approach as policy unless you have vacant capacity that can be instantly repurposed) assistance to those who even with greater supply are not inmediately able to make market rents.

You can't execute a Housing First strategy effectively without adequate housing supply, which is the most fundamental problem in a number of locales, including the Bay Area. But additional market supply alone is not sufficient to address the urgent homelessness problem.

> IMO govn't need to relax the regulation to build more houses and drive the cost down

That absolutely needs to happen, and that helps with prevention, but except for the fairly-well-employed homeless (a group that actually exists and is often ignored, but isn't a big part of the homeless problem), adding new market rate supply alone does not provide significant assistance to the currently homeless.

Re: Finland's zero homeless strategy (2021)

#367

Post by zdragnar » Sat, Jan 11, 2025, 6:10 AM UTC

epistasis wrote: post #333

tlogan wrote: post #323

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Why would they not scale? Due to the complexity and diversity in economic, cultural, and social value networks. For example, the approach which is working for Modesto will probably not work for San Francisco.

That has less to do with the size of the US but everything to do with the lack of size in the US. We make it impossible to do things by making each city small independent, and having a lack of unity. Our government is not more complex than Finland's because we have more people, it's because we chose to make it inefficient and complex. Removing local cities' power to be different for the sake of complexity would solve…

Why do you think a regional government would be any more altruistic and charitable than a city government? I've seen a regional governmental (a metropolitan council like you suggest) that covers multiple cities in a metro area that have done nothing but squander money to justify their own existence. It got so bad that they ended up getting their powers curtailed by the state.

Everything else you mention is just wishful thinking that could be applied to any government regardless of size or scope.

Re: Finland's zero homeless strategy (2021)

#368

Post by friend_Fernando » Sat, Jan 11, 2025, 6:13 AM UTC

SequoiaHope wrote: post #364

wat10000 wrote: post #348

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A business center doesn't have to be expensive. That’s made to happen because housing isn’t allowed to be built in sufficient quantity, not a necessary consequence of success.

I think quantity is a valid concern but I also think treating housing as a speculative asset is an issue. Housing serves as a valuable speculative asset precisely because quantity is restricted by a variety of factors, but actually using it as a speculative asset raises prices significantly.

Relative scarcity is the necessary and sufficient condition. Either there's enough housing or there isn't (there's a bit of slack with relocations, house sharing and spare bedrooms but it's largely inconsequential.) That means that supply (i.e. quantity) is enough.

It's true that if it was impossible to speculate on housing, there would be less incentive to create artificial scarcity by e.g. lobbying for restrictive land use policies.

Re: Finland's zero homeless strategy (2021)

#369

Post by thfuran » Sat, Jan 11, 2025, 6:33 AM UTC

mmooss wrote: post #350

thfuran wrote: post #205

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When you say "things", I assume you don't mean "to change deeply held values and cultural traditions".

Sure, like women getting educated, working, and having equal rights? Universal literacy and education? Instant global telecommunications? Democracy? ... I think it can be done!

>Sure, like women getting educated, working, and having equal rights?

That only took a few thousand years and still isn't really there yet.

Re: Finland's zero homeless strategy (2021)

#370

Post by 127 » Sat, Jan 11, 2025, 6:36 AM UTC

andriamanitra wrote: post #219

127 wrote: post #82

Also -40C winters might have something to do with it.

-40°C is extremely rare in Southern Finland where most people live. In Helsinki the average temperature is about -6°C in the coldest months of the year, and at worst it might drop down to around -15 to -25°C (depending on the year).

That's what the peak was a couple of years ago or so.