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Finland's zero homeless strategy (2021)

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Re: Finland's zero homeless strategy (2021)

#181

Post by amiga386 »

mmooss wrote: post #131
andrewla wrote: post #92

Without digging too deep into the nature of the statistics they use, I'm a little skeptical of this. The transition to using the word "homeless" has resulted in transforming something we can't easily measure -- "drug addicted or mentally ill people being a public menace" -- into something that we can measure -- "people without a good living arrangement". Sure, the latter is important in a lot of ways too. And there h…

You're assuming others share your perspective and understanding. > The transition to using the word "homeless" has resulted in transforming something we can't easily measure -- "drug addicted or mentally ill people being a public menace" -- into something that we can measure -- "people without a good living arrangement". > the former is the actual problem that we care about The word homeless is pretty old, not someth…

> I spend a lot of time in cities and know others who do too. None feel menaced by people who are unhoused - why would that be menacing? - or high. High people generally don't know you are there, and are easily avoided. I've had zero problems; I don't know of anyone else who has.

"Nothing ever happens" says person nothing happened to. Meanwhile, these are just some examples that made the news:

* https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-67386865 "A suspect has been arrested two days after former US Senator Martha McSally reported being sexually assaulted while on a run in Iowa [...] The suspect, who is thought to be homeless,"

* https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-derbyshire-65569357 "Derby homeless man raped women who offered to help him"

* https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-41484206 "A "manipulative" homeless man who turned on a family who befriended him has admitted the "frenzied" murder of the mother and her 13-year-old son."

* https://www.reuters.com/article/lifestyle/life-sentence-for-... "A severely mentally ill man was sentenced to life in prison on Friday for beheading a Hollywood screenwriter [...] a homeless former Marine described by his lawyer as "very, very mentally ill", pleaded guilty [...] in a crime without motive."

* https://www.cbsnews.com/losangeles/news/long-beach-woman-sex... "Long Beach woman sexually assaulted by homeless man in broad daylight"

Fortunately I haven't witnessed any murders or rapes, but the most shocking for me was that I've visited Vancouver twice in my life, and on both visits, lone women walking down the street in broad daylight were chased after and opportunisticly molested by drunk vagrants hanging around on Robson Street. Broad daylight. They had absolutely no shame. And other than the molested women fighting them off and running away, nobody did or said anything.

Everyone has a right to walk about in public unmolested, and I would want the police to arrest those men and prosecute them for sexual assault.

You're delusional or misinformed if you think this doesn't happen. Of course it happens.

On the other hand, you can be molested or assaulted by drunk and beligerent homed people. And, more importantly, homeless people are much more at risk of assault or rape by the homed, than the homed are of being assaulted and raped by the homeless. For all the articles I linked above, they are dwarfed by news reports of homeless people being shot, beaten, stabbed, set on fire or raped.

So, overall, homeless people as a whole are neither saints nor devils. They are who they are, and each individual has a different situation. We should feel a lot of empathy for them, and want to help them into a less precarious position... but we also want to do it because we're mindful of the danger to the public that untreated mental illness poses.

Re: Finland's zero homeless strategy (2021)

#182

Post by cryptozeus »

Seeing comments from few homeless folks here, I wish you good luck and hope your situation changes. I have a very different image in mind when it comes to homeless people and having to live on roadside let alone afford a phone and time to comment on hacker news.

Re: Finland's zero homeless strategy (2021)

#183

Post by carlosjobim »

cousin_it wrote: post #106

I think governments should offer free housing to everyone who asks, in their city of choice. "But why should taxpayers pay for that? It's expensive!" Yes, it would be very expensive. But you know what's even more expensive? The sum of everybody's lowered wages, bad bosses, fear for the future, fear of having kids and so on, due to the threat of homelessness. Yes, building housing is expensive, but the removal of fear…

What you're proposing is classical Soviet communism. Particularly Khrushchev era communism. Much have been said and written about it, if you're interested.

Re: Finland's zero homeless strategy (2021)

#184

Post by TOMDM »

m0llusk wrote: post #177
annzabelle wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My understanding is that Northern Europe has a much more robust system of using Long Acting Injectable Antipsychotics (under court order if nessecary) and various group home options or Assertive Community Treatment teams that have nurses visit patients daily. They are also quicker to use lithium and clozapine when indicated. They also do much longer hospital stays when needed than our revolving door policies here. Al…

Psychiatry has some of the worst reproducability of any science. People who are forced to live on the streets without good access to services begin to exhibit symptoms of psychosis within one to two days and lose those symptoms after a similar duration of one or two days with housing. In Europe such a policy might make sense, but in America where being dumped on the street is rather common the situation is different.…

> Psychiatry has some of the worst reproducability of any science. People who are forced to live on the streets without good access to services begin to exhibit symptoms of psychosis within one to two days and lose those symptoms after a similar duration of one or two days with housing.

Is this a studied phenomenon I can read about? I'd appreciate any literature suggestions if you have them.

Re: Finland's zero homeless strategy (2021)

#185

Post by carlosjobim »

peab wrote: post #86
nostromo wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's funny how every westerner visits Japan and comes home thinking we can "solve crime" or "solve homelessness" or "have clean subway stations." Japan's culture is why those things are the way they are. It's not due to funding. It's because people raise their children differently than we do in the west. The family's obligations are also greater. And, yes, there are homeless people in Japan. But they typically are in…

Even if it's cultural, it can be fixed. Culture can change and can be changed by choice

What if culture springs from genetic inheritance? How do you change that?

Re: Finland's zero homeless strategy (2021)

#186

Post by ferociouskite56 »

andrewla wrote: post #92

Without digging too deep into the nature of the statistics they use, I'm a little skeptical of this. The transition to using the word "homeless" has resulted in transforming something we can't easily measure -- "drug addicted or mentally ill people being a public menace" -- into something that we can measure -- "people without a good living arrangement". Sure, the latter is important in a lot of ways too. And there h…

No, there are not "a number of effective drugs." I interviewed 100 mental patients and the rare ones with hallucinations were not cured. Benzos help anxiety, SSRI don't do much, Cobenfy is promising. Involuntary commitment wouldn't be horrible if violating injections and ECT electrocution were voluntary.

Re: Finland's zero homeless strategy (2021)

#187

Post by MichaelZuo »

titaniumtown wrote: post #174
MichaelZuo wrote: post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Who gets to determine the minimum threshold? And how will they enforce it?

The government and laws?

Which part of what government?

With what legal basis?

Things aren’t magically legal and viable in the real world just because an HN user imagines it.

Re: Finland's zero homeless strategy (2021)

#188

Post by vkou »

Scoundreller wrote: post #112
TinyBig wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How would it be possible to fix the problem at the expense of the lower working class?

> How would it be possible to fix the problem at the expense of the lower working class? Not sure if you intended to phrase your question as you did, but if you give cash to the unhoused to rent housing, that takes supply from the bottom of the rental market if you don’t build any more. Builders tend to build for those that can afford to pay and don’t target the bottom of the market. Most stock of low-cost housing is…

I mean, yes, it doesn't matter how you distribute money, when there are 9 beds in town, and 10 people, someone's going to be sleeping rough.

Re: Finland's zero homeless strategy (2021)

#189

Post by j45 »

andrewla wrote: post #92

Without digging too deep into the nature of the statistics they use, I'm a little skeptical of this. The transition to using the word "homeless" has resulted in transforming something we can't easily measure -- "drug addicted or mentally ill people being a public menace" -- into something that we can measure -- "people without a good living arrangement". Sure, the latter is important in a lot of ways too. And there h…

Finland has figured out a number of thing it seems other than homelessness.

Their education system is pretty interesting, and their policing system has some approaches to interacting with the community as well. If I can find the links I'll share.

Skepticism is fine, but it shouldn't be a reason to discount or dismiss something, nor does it mean to accept it. Take it in as a data point.

Re: Finland's zero homeless strategy (2021)

#190

Post by tuukkah »

justin66 wrote: post #117
philip1209 wrote: post #4

Worth pointing out that Finland is one of the most ethnically homogeneous societies in Europe - only ~10% of the population is of foreign origin and background [1]. So, like Japan, it's easier to have a high-trust society if you eschew immigration. Edit: Just to be clear, I'm very pro-immigration. I just think that studying rich homogeneous societies doesn't result in many useful takeaways for countries like the USA.…

> Worth pointing out that Finland is one of the most ethnically homogeneous societies in Europe - only ~10% of the population is of foreign origin and background Meh. They've got two different official languages. It's not as ethnically uniform as a lot of other European countries.

We also have an indigenous people, the Sami (who are not always treated that well).
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