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LA wildfires force thousands to evacuate, NASA JPL closed

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Re: LA wildfires force thousands to evacuate, NASA JPL closed

#621

Post by s1artibartfast »

mulmen wrote: post #614
s1artibartfast wrote: post #611

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the means are ethical, as well as the ends. At the end of the day, I dont think each of the things you said are true. I dont think there is wage competition, I dont think the state is setting sentences based on labor demands, and I dont think there is an impact to locations of habitation.

Then that is the basis of our disagreement. I can’t consider the practice ethical given my understanding of economics, human nature, and history. These two Wikipedia pages show examples of why I don’t think this practice is ethical. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Penal_labor_in_the_United_St... https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Codes_(United_States)

As stated elsewhere, I think penal labor is just and moral in concept.

However, I do agree that the moral hazards are too great around combining it with for-profit prisons and corporations.

I think the one area where I would find private employment acceptable is work release programs at market rate, provided the pay goes to the prisoners instead of the state. I think these programs should be expanded, and could help with child support, victim restitution, and stability upon release.

Re: LA wildfires force thousands to evacuate, NASA JPL closed

#622

Post by throaway89 »

Yeul wrote: post #515
ExoticPearTree wrote: post #495

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From behind a keyboard and who knows how far away from Los Angeles you are, you may look at it with other eyes than the people who lost their homes in the fires. And yes, in the end the mayor is responsible for the wellbeing of the city. And people see the mayor is nowhere to be found when their homes burned down. Who do you want them to be mad at?

Texas governor was in Acapulco and nobody blamed him. Anyway on topic an aunt of mine is a mayor of a small city (55k). Her opinion is that firefighters fight fires and having a politician walk around a disaster area with a hundred journalists isn't helping.

That was Newsom

Re: LA wildfires force thousands to evacuate, NASA JPL closed

#623

Post by tomohawk »

philistine wrote: post #521
tomohawk wrote: post #507

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

> She went to Ghana on a taxpayer paid political junket, which doesn't seem like something the mayor of even a major city would be officially involved in I live in a very mid-size city for my province and our mayor goes on international trips on city business maybe once a year. The fact itself is not out of the ordinary.

This mayor seems really interested in advancing the interests of Africa, rather than where she actually has a job.

https://youtu.be/u8c_3YEosk4

Re: LA wildfires force thousands to evacuate, NASA JPL closed

#624

Post by jarsin »

consumer451 wrote: post #591

People have lost their lives and many more have lost their homes. Elon Musk has chimed-in on the matter. I don't post this flippantly. As a huge fan of Tesla and SpaceX, someone please explain to me what is happening. https://i.redd.it/iasdlw98tzbe1.png

Won't be long until Jones is saying this tragedy is all CGI. Then Musk will give him a "100%" reply.

Re: LA wildfires force thousands to evacuate, NASA JPL closed

#625

Post by drawkward »

anon291 wrote: post #615
drawkward wrote: post #487

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you have a source for that claim? On the face, it seems pretty outrageous.

Yes . https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/edmonton/fires-set-by-firefig... I'm honestly surprised at the downvotes. I thought this was common knowledge.

Your article cites 100 annual firefighter convictions for arson in North America. For your claim to be true, that means fewer than 200 arson convictions annually in all of Canada, US, and Mexico. It says firefighter arson is common, but does not appear to claim that they are the most common offender.

That seems really really low!

Re: LA wildfires force thousands to evacuate, NASA JPL closed

#626

Post by svnt »

sahila wrote: post #425
svnt wrote: post #299

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No one has a response, they just downvote because they don’t like the reality of the situation?

Because no one is actually seriously proposing to pay prisoners the same rate as real firefighters; we just shouldn't be using prisoners. Would you allow prisoners to volunteer as teachers, nurses, engineers? Why is the market for firefighters the only one that gets free volunteers from this pool? But it's not just hurting the firefighter market, lots of people just have issues with using prisoners as slaves.

> Would you allow prisoners to volunteer as teachers, nurses, engineers?

If part of their job description was the equivalent of clearing brush/cutting fire lines in emergencies, I might consider it.

> Why is the market for firefighters the only one that gets free volunteers from this pool?

Do you have another source of willing, not-risk-averse, physically fit and competent people that are not doing anything else, know each other already, can be there ready to work together at a moment’s notice, and won’t bail partway through to go fill an instacart order?

Re: LA wildfires force thousands to evacuate, NASA JPL closed

#627

Post by kristjansson »

anon291 wrote: post #617
kristjansson wrote: post #597

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We need to manage the forest! We need prescribed burns, fire roads, lookouts, etc. But we also need sensible development at the interface, stricter brush-clearance laws, emissions restrictions to attempt to mitigate climate change, etc. But people get angry because 'forest management' has become a shorthand for the former without the latter (or in denial of the latter). It's been promulgated as an _alternative_ polic…

Who the hell cares what some climate change denying Republican says? Ca is run by democrats and they categorically refuse to do forest management.. If hearing we need to manage the forest makes you more upset at your fellow Americans rather than more concerned about the viability of your community, you are the problem.

As a policy, it shouldn't make anyone mad. The fact that there is organized and successful resistance to prescribed burns is a failure of CA politics. I hope this event eliminates at least some of that resistance.

As a message, presented on its own, it connotes a reductive sophistic denialist take. Getting to the effective policy requires an effective message. Like you and I have talked about before, the burden is on the advocate to craft a message whose whole meaning (denotation & connatation) conveys what they intend.

Re: LA wildfires force thousands to evacuate, NASA JPL closed

#628

Post by s1artibartfast »

mulmen wrote: post #609
s1artibartfast wrote: post #583

Earlier quoted context omitted.

how so?

The desire to escape is strong in prison when the decision to fight fires is made. The self preservation instinct doesn’t kick in until the danger becomes real at which point it is too late. This difference in perception is what prison labor exploits in prisoners.

I thought the core of your concern, then I think it's addressed by the lack of regret in reality. Do you have any data on prisoner firefighter retention and turnover? My understanding is that these people ought to fight fire after fire and stay in the program.

Re: LA wildfires force thousands to evacuate, NASA JPL closed

#629

Post by culi »

throwup238 wrote: post #353
culi wrote: post #264

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm sorry for your loss. Are you lucky enough to be in a place where insurers in California are still operating? Hopefully you can at least get financial situation taken off your mind

> Are you lucky enough to be in a place where insurers in California are still operating? California has had a state fire insurer (FAIR) of last resort for over fifty years and fire insurance is practically mandatory for mortgages so there aren’t many places that are excluded. It’s entirely funded by premiums and has never been bailed out by state or federal funds. It’s not like the National Insurance Flood Program t…

TIL! Thanks for the info. I didn't know there was an actually functioning state fire insurance plan. I guess all those news articles about insurers pulling out of California is political propaganda I fell for :/

Here's a link if anyone's interested https://www.insurance.ca.gov/01-consumers/200-wrr/California...

Re: LA wildfires force thousands to evacuate, NASA JPL closed

#630

Post by culi »

jandrewrogers wrote: post #343
geysersam wrote: post #318

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are there areas of California where insurers are not operating anymore because of wildfires? That's crazy

Yes, there are parts of California that are uninsurable against wildfires. Technically they could be insurable but State regulators will not allow insurance companies to raise premiums sufficient to cover the actuarial risk. The necessary premiums are prohibitively expensive for homeowners, but anything less risks bankrupting the insurance companies and increases their reinsurance costs which also must be passed on t…

As someone pointed out above, California has the FAIR plan for over 50 years which has been pretty effective. This LA fire might be its biggest test. Basically there's no part of California that is not insurable against wildfire

https://grist.org/extreme-weather/california-overhauled-its-...

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