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Roman Empire's use of lead lowered IQ levels across Europe, study finds

theguardian.com

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Re: Roman Empire's use of lead lowered IQ levels across Europe, study finds

#161

Post by UltraSane »

me-vs-cat wrote: post #157
UltraSane wrote: post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is perfectly reasonable to assume lead would affect people 2000 years ago the same way it does today. Human biology hasn't changed.

1. Lactose Tolerance: The ability to digest lactose as adults evolved in populations with a history of dairy farming, such as those in Europe, the Middle East, and parts of Africa. 2. Disease Resistance: Genetic adaptations to diseases like malaria (e.g., sickle cell trait) have become more common in certain regions. 3. Skin Pigmentation: Variations in skin color have continued to adapt to UV exposure in different re…

And none of that is at all relevant to how lead affects the human brain and so is completely useless. You should have asked it "Would lead lower IQ in humans 2000 years ago the same way it does today?" This is what DeepSeekv3 says:

Yes, lead exposure would have likely had similar detrimental effects on human cognition and IQ 2000 years ago as it does today. Lead is a neurotoxin that interferes with the development and function of the brain, particularly in children. Its harmful effects on intelligence, behavior, and overall health are well-documented in modern studies, and these effects would have been the same in the past, even if they were not understood at the time.

Re: Roman Empire's use of lead lowered IQ levels across Europe, study finds

#162

Post by UltraSane »

me-vs-cat wrote: post #160
kennyloginz wrote: post #159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What a horrible reference. I hope this doesn’t become a thing.

I thought so too, at first. Then I realized this is better than common daily occurrences like, "it's perfectly reasonable to assume human biology does not change in 2000 years". At least this is amusing!

The effect that lead has on the human brain has not changed.

Re: Roman Empire's use of lead lowered IQ levels across Europe, study finds

#163

Post by Anotheroneagain »

gazchop wrote: post #70
SMP-UX wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is one of the problems with modern academia. It's hard to extrapolate these things

Oh it's really easy to extrapolate stuff. But perhaps they shouldn't. A lot of papers I've seen recently have wild romantic extrapolations based on cherry picked correlations. Some of the social sciences are terrible at this. A former partner was a researcher in one of what I now consider to be less respectable fields and she would come up with a feely conclusion and fit the data to it and publish it. Wanted me to co…

That could explain how the lead poisoning crowd took over. No, there won't be any retractions, you will be "educated" that you are stupid, "anti science", and too stupid to understand the newly discovered "fact".

Re: Roman Empire's use of lead lowered IQ levels across Europe, study finds

#164

Post by Anotheroneagain »

somenameforme wrote: post #158
feoren wrote: post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The hypothesis I find most compelling is that IQ levels have "naturally" been declining for decades You find compelling the idea that organisms naturally get dumber with each successive generation? What possible mechanism would cause IQ levels to "naturally" decline? Have they been naturally declining since the dawn of civilization? Since LUCA? Shouldn't the expectation be that without other causes, IQ levels would…

I think there are two distinct branches of reasons. The first is probably what you're asking about - what environmental factor(s) could be lowering IQ. And I think there are countless possibilities there, but many are quite subjective or at least unproven. The trendy one in academic circles is air pollution as a cause (seems uncompelling to me, unless China suddenly sees a dramatic decline in urban IQ). I'd also add…

The problem with IQ is that it measures the cerebellum. People who lack abstract thinking will learn to rely on the patterns and statistics, and intuitively score high on the tests. The second problem is that people who don't have abstract thinking don't comprehend abstract thinking, and so they think that people with abstract thinking are dumb.

Re: Roman Empire's use of lead lowered IQ levels across Europe, study finds

#165

Post by BSDobelix »

_philemon wrote: post #141
BSDobelix wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I dont know who "us" is, but probably roads and writing?

I think reference is in order... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qc7HmhrgTuQ

Ohhh, haha thanks, now it makes sense who "us" is ;)

Re: Roman Empire's use of lead lowered IQ levels across Europe, study finds

#166

Post by coderwolf »

peterfirefly wrote: post #109
The_Colonel wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you have IQ 50, it's not just that you do things slower than other people, you can't do many things at all.

Even worse: if you have an IQ of 100, there are lots of things you just can't do. And if you have an IQ of 120? Still lots of things you just can't do. Same with 140. And it doesn't even stop there.

Could you share some examples for what you mean?

There are two different form of understandability that comes to my mind,

1. Things that you don't understand because you don't have the necessary background knowledge, 2. And the things you'd fundamentally never understand because of the limitations of your own mind, which is, limited by the IQ.

I' assuming you're trying to mean the second version here.

Re: Roman Empire's use of lead lowered IQ levels across Europe, study finds

#167

Post by coderwolf »

jjk166 wrote: post #149
siva7 wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unfortunately for that we have computers so we don't need high IQ to do more work like calculations but higher quality work (which also depends on what kind of work you're doing) and that is oftentimes not primarily related to high IQ (think of creative work)

IQ measures reasoning capability, not speed of mental calculations.

I think you're right. (Did some ChatGPTing, and found this one holds).

But still, I don't believe IQ alone can improve your reasoning capability, could it? Like with proper education, and knowledge, a person with average IQ would more likely be able to see the correct patterns, and connections between ideas, than a high IQ person without the required education would.

It's like - having the proper education, trumps the meaning of having a high IQ. But, it's true, given the similar environment, I'd assume, the high IQ person would do better.

Re: Roman Empire's use of lead lowered IQ levels across Europe, study finds

#168

Post by MonkeyIsNull »

BSDobelix wrote: post #122
biggoodwolf wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What did the Romans ever do for us?

I dont know who "us" is, but probably roads and writing?

Well obviously the roads, the roads go without saying, don't they?

Re: Roman Empire's use of lead lowered IQ levels across Europe, study finds

#170

Post by vanattab »

Rexxar wrote: post #155
tankenmate wrote: post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Something a lot of people don't realise is that the last of the "Roman" states (that called themselves Roman) didn't cease until about 50 years before Columbus crossed the Atlantic (xref the fall of Constantinople).

You can also count the Holy Roman Empire that was dissolved in 1806.

No you can't, dispite the name the "Holy Roman Empire" was nether Holy or Roman.

It considered it's self the successor in the same way that russia considers itself to be the 3rd Rome.

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