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Roman Empire's use of lead lowered IQ levels across Europe, study finds

theguardian.com

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Re: Roman Empire's use of lead lowered IQ levels across Europe, study finds

#151

Post by tankenmate »

gazchop wrote: post #71
PeterHolzwarth wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fully agree, @peeters - as I've mentioned elsewhere in these comments, there's a long-standing trend of trying to identify the one true cause of the fall of the Roman Empire. Each explanation falls short - it's just a complicated thing (and heck, the empire didn't really fall, it just shifted east.)

Inclined to agree with this. It didn't fall, just sort of withered into other cultural ideologies and empires. Some of it was also fucking bananas which didn't survive enlightenment.

Something a lot of people don't realise is that the last of the "Roman" states (that called themselves Roman) didn't cease until about 50 years before Columbus crossed the Atlantic (xref the fall of Constantinople).

Re: Roman Empire's use of lead lowered IQ levels across Europe, study finds

#152

Post by luxuryballs »

lolinder wrote: post #143
luxuryballs wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

nothing to do with RFK or politics, I feel like people are missing the point here though, imagine Rome in 45 BC “why call out lead?” while Roberto F Kenedius has been spreading conspiracies about lead pipes being bad

Does your point have nothing to do with RFK, or is the point people are missing that RFK has been spreading conspiracy theories that might be real after all? I'm somewhat confused by the seeming contradiction.

nothing to do with RFK I was just piggybacking on the other comment mentioning him to further paint the original picture: history repeating itself, future culture trying to understand past culture by limited speculation, and future culture (being the present culture) that will eventually be the past culture and every present culture tends to think they understand things better than they actually do, so it’s fun to think of us talking about Rome and lead in water, and future culture talking about us and Fluoride in water, regardless of how accurate any of it is or related to “empire collapse”, funny to imagine there was someone back then saying claims about lead being possibly harmful are biased, whatever the personal motive was (ie, not wanting to believe they let their kids drink dangerous lead pipe water so they go out of their way to tell others that claims of lead being suspected to be dangerous are biased, which is itself a bias)

Re: Roman Empire's use of lead lowered IQ levels across Europe, study finds

#153

Post by User23 »

User23 wrote: post #56
pseudolus wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Perhaps not with respect to IQ but there’s a chance that future historians might correlate the use of plastics with increased rates of infertility.

Next do fluoride. That’s been “debunked” though right?

For those that didn’t get the memo: https://www.cnn.com/2025/01/06/health/children-higher-fluori...

Re: Roman Empire's use of lead lowered IQ levels across Europe, study finds

#154

Post by feoren »

somenameforme wrote: post #60
trimethylpurine wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

IQs aren't changing much Isn't IQ a comparative representation of one's standing within their contemporary age group? My understanding is that within a given group the median should be 100. So you won't see it change between groups. This is highly relevant when you're talking about different groups being exposed to different concentrations of lead. As an extreme example to make the point, if people born in 1970 were…

You're right about how IQ is measured with 100 being the average and, generally, 15 points being a standard deviation. But numerous tests also record raw scores and these can be compared between generations. Scandiland and other places with compulsory conscription + IQ testing are the goldmine here. This is what led to the observation of the 'Flynn Effect' - the observation that IQ between generations was increasing,…

> The hypothesis I find most compelling is that IQ levels have "naturally" been declining for decades

You find compelling the idea that organisms naturally get dumber with each successive generation? What possible mechanism would cause IQ levels to "naturally" decline? Have they been naturally declining since the dawn of civilization? Since LUCA? Shouldn't the expectation be that without other causes, IQ levels would remain roughly constant throughout generations?

Re: Roman Empire's use of lead lowered IQ levels across Europe, study finds

#155

Post by Rexxar »

tankenmate wrote: post #151
gazchop wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Inclined to agree with this. It didn't fall, just sort of withered into other cultural ideologies and empires. Some of it was also fucking bananas which didn't survive enlightenment.

Something a lot of people don't realise is that the last of the "Roman" states (that called themselves Roman) didn't cease until about 50 years before Columbus crossed the Atlantic (xref the fall of Constantinople).

You can also count the Holy Roman Empire that was dissolved in 1806.

Re: Roman Empire's use of lead lowered IQ levels across Europe, study finds

#156

Post by gradientsrneat »

imdsm wrote: post #108

I wrote about this last year and everyone here picked on me calling my article AI generated, so I shut down my curiosity blog.

Reading through the submission, it looks like hardly anyone replied or upvoted, the replies seemed like constructive criticism, you acknowledged that you used AI, and you used "we" throughout replies to the feedback. Even in the absence of the article for context, what you are saying now doesn't seem like a fair assessment on behalf of the community, at least from the comment section's side. I will acknowledge there are lowlife trolls who lurk HN, but also flagging an article that is largely created by AI seems reasonable.

Re: Roman Empire's use of lead lowered IQ levels across Europe, study finds

#157

Post by me-vs-cat »

UltraSane wrote: post #145
peeters wrote: post #46

> Roman Empire’s use of lead lowered IQ levels across Europe, study finds I'm not a fan of this phrasing. None of the findings had anything to do with measuring IQ levels in ancient Europe. They were about measuring historical levels of lead, which they then just plugged into modern models to presume some levels of cognitive effects. A study that was actually able to measure cognitive disparities and correlate them w…

It is perfectly reasonable to assume lead would affect people 2000 years ago the same way it does today. Human biology hasn't changed.

1. Lactose Tolerance: The ability to digest lactose as adults evolved in populations with a history of dairy farming, such as those in Europe, the Middle East, and parts of Africa.

2. Disease Resistance: Genetic adaptations to diseases like malaria (e.g., sickle cell trait) have become more common in certain regions.

3. Skin Pigmentation: Variations in skin color have continued to adapt to UV exposure in different regions, influenced by migration and interbreeding.

4. Height and Physique: Improved nutrition and health care have led to an increase in average height and changes in body composition in many populations.

5. Wisdom Teeth: A gradual decrease in jaw size has made wisdom teeth less functional, and they are increasingly absent in some populations.

6. Brain Function: While the brain's size and structure remain unchanged, shifts in cognitive demands and education have influenced how we use our brains.

-- https://let-me-ChatGPT-that-for-you/search?q=how+has+human+b...

Re: Roman Empire's use of lead lowered IQ levels across Europe, study finds

#158

Post by somenameforme »

feoren wrote: post #154
somenameforme wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're right about how IQ is measured with 100 being the average and, generally, 15 points being a standard deviation. But numerous tests also record raw scores and these can be compared between generations. Scandiland and other places with compulsory conscription + IQ testing are the goldmine here. This is what led to the observation of the 'Flynn Effect' - the observation that IQ between generations was increasing,…

> The hypothesis I find most compelling is that IQ levels have "naturally" been declining for decades You find compelling the idea that organisms naturally get dumber with each successive generation? What possible mechanism would cause IQ levels to "naturally" decline? Have they been naturally declining since the dawn of civilization? Since LUCA? Shouldn't the expectation be that without other causes, IQ levels would…

I think there are two distinct branches of reasons. The first is probably what you're asking about - what environmental factor(s) could be lowering IQ. And I think there are countless possibilities there, but many are quite subjective or at least unproven. The trendy one in academic circles is air pollution as a cause (seems uncompelling to me, unless China suddenly sees a dramatic decline in urban IQ). I'd also add endless entertainment, urbanization/industrialization creating low trust societies, labor swapping from widely skilled self employment to narrowly skilled employment, chemicals/microplastics/etc that we consume in food/water, and so on.

But there's also the most objective and straightforward reason as well - evolution. As far as evolution is concerned IQ isn't good or bad, it's just another highly heritable trait. When it correlates against fertility (as it currently does), IQs will decrease over time. When it correlates with fertility (as it likely did when life was more difficult), they will increase over time.

Re: Roman Empire's use of lead lowered IQ levels across Europe, study finds

#159

Post by kennyloginz »

me-vs-cat wrote: post #157
UltraSane wrote: post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is perfectly reasonable to assume lead would affect people 2000 years ago the same way it does today. Human biology hasn't changed.

1. Lactose Tolerance: The ability to digest lactose as adults evolved in populations with a history of dairy farming, such as those in Europe, the Middle East, and parts of Africa. 2. Disease Resistance: Genetic adaptations to diseases like malaria (e.g., sickle cell trait) have become more common in certain regions. 3. Skin Pigmentation: Variations in skin color have continued to adapt to UV exposure in different re…

What a horrible reference. I hope this doesn’t become a thing.

Re: Roman Empire's use of lead lowered IQ levels across Europe, study finds

#160

Post by me-vs-cat »

kennyloginz wrote: post #159
me-vs-cat wrote: post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

1. Lactose Tolerance: The ability to digest lactose as adults evolved in populations with a history of dairy farming, such as those in Europe, the Middle East, and parts of Africa. 2. Disease Resistance: Genetic adaptations to diseases like malaria (e.g., sickle cell trait) have become more common in certain regions. 3. Skin Pigmentation: Variations in skin color have continued to adapt to UV exposure in different re…

What a horrible reference. I hope this doesn’t become a thing.

I thought so too, at first.

Then I realized this is better than common daily occurrences like, "it's perfectly reasonable to assume human biology does not change in 2000 years".

At least this is amusing!

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