[flagged]
You might want to take a look at https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42614703 , which I posted earlier today, answering a somewhat similar question.
Thanks for keeping the site what it is. Can't be easy work.
Justin Trudeau promises to resign as PM
951–960 of 1001 posts
Re: Justin Trudeau promises to resign as PM
#952Earlier quoted context omitted.
iirc the finding was that it was within the power of the province to handle the situation. The thing is, the province wasn't using the powers it had to handle it. The situation was obviously an emergency. You can't just let a convoy of heavy vehicles occupy your national capital indefinitely and say "not a problem, the provincial govt could theoretically handle this" I'm not sure the Quebec kidnappings would have met…
It may have been an emergency in the first days with the honking. That largely stopped after a week or so. They switched to camping in front of the parliament with bouncy castles etc. The bridge that was occupied in another province was cleared. I'm really not under the impression that at the time they went in there was any emergency. It was ugly: Peaceful unarmed protesters in pedestrian zones with no trucks in sigh…
I see a lot of posts like this, and this is straight up disinformation. I'm not assuming it's willful, since disinformation breeds disinformation, but here's my account as someone who lives here and is glad Trudeau resigned.
The idea that it was a few days of honking then bouncy castles is nonsense. It was an extended occupation of the downtown of the capital. Endless trucks and other vehicles, many with their wheels removed, back-to-back fully blocking a large section of the downtown for weeks. Yes, honking – and loud truck air horns.
There really was chaos downtown, and not the hand-wringing "poop in the street in SF" type. And a lot of it did have right wing vibes. Examples: A well known café had its large window with a LGBTQ illustration smashed. There was while when emergency workers needed escort downtown because of racist abuse. (I was downtown, I heard and saw a ton myself.) Just incredibly dumb stuff: A soup kitchen was intimidated and raided.
And yes, it was financially supported by the "right", including a lot of American money.
Yes, there was a site with bouncy castles and kids playing, but that's obviously not a problem. There's protest in Ottawa all the time, and it's sometimes inconvenient, and that's life in the capital.
The last straw for me wasn't even the chaos in Ottawa, but the protest shutting down the Ambassador bridge in Windsor. That's really bad. Ontario's auto sector is huge, and the perceived reliability and predictability of the flow of intermediate goods across the border is everything to that sector. Interrupting it has an enormous immediate and ongoing economic impact. (I'm not sure where you get your information, but the bridge is also in Ontario.)
None of that is to say that the emergencies act was the right tool. My fairly uninformed impression is that there were tools short of the act that should have been used.
But it's frustrating seeing disinformation and revisioning like this stand. Please reconsider whatever news sources are providing you with this false information.
Re: Justin Trudeau promises to resign as PM
#953Earlier quoted context omitted.
It may have been an emergency in the first days with the honking. That largely stopped after a week or so. They switched to camping in front of the parliament with bouncy castles etc. The bridge that was occupied in another province was cleared. I'm really not under the impression that at the time they went in there was any emergency. It was ugly: Peaceful unarmed protesters in pedestrian zones with no trucks in sigh…
I see a lot of posts like this, and this is straight up disinformation. I'm not assuming it's willful, since disinformation breeds disinformation, but here's my account as someone who lives here and is glad Trudeau resigned. The idea that it was a few days of honking then bouncy castles is nonsense. It was an extended occupation of the downtown of the capital. Endless trucks and other vehicles, many with their wheels…
So you support abusive authoritarianism, but only when it's from your side?
Re: Justin Trudeau promises to resign as PM
#954Earlier quoted context omitted.
> effectively holding our economy hostage This is what a protest is. (French here). If protesters go as far, and in Canada it was because you did them dirty, then you must sit at a table and negotiate. You must sit at a table and negotiate with everyone in a country. You cannot do someone dirty then complain that they protest. It’s effects removing the right to protest, and therefore, removing democracy itself. Go li…
Speaking as someone who has been in dozens of protests in my life: yes, that is what protest is, and as a protester engaging in civil disobedience you expect the response from authorities. That is exactly the point. When I have been on the receiving end of tear gas, there was no surprise. Big duh. Crying because your illegal civil disobedience led to civil reaction by the law is the height of "oh no the leopard ate m…
They weren't punished by the law though, they were debanked in an era where you need to use the banks to eat, pay rent and to merely survive. That is above and beyond any legal punishment. It is economic banishment and it is se excessive that it alone should be shunned by any person who wants civilization to survive.
Re: Justin Trudeau promises to resign as PM
#955Current canuck here.
Since Trudeau has been elected the likelihood of purchasing a home or finding a job has drastically reduced and continues to fall. Rising tides raise all boats, given that the rent has risen everywhere too.
This creates a divide between the have and have-nots of property ownership and public or private employment. This divides ends in the individuals who have are happy since their investment skyrocketed while the have-nots are left with no hope for their future.
As for employment, the primary job growth is in public sector (government jobs) which are ultimately a parasitic value add to the economy.
Given this, it's easy to see the negative sentiment in Trudeau and his cabinet. This sentiment seems to have hit a crescendo with the recent release of the over-shot budget deficit.
Thoughts?
Re: Justin Trudeau promises to resign as PM
#956Earlier quoted context omitted.
Perhaps bad phrasing, it is an emotional issue having lived through it. I like to think that I don't live in a country ruled by a King but rather in a community of citizens who have collectively agreed on a way of doing things. This includes the right to express dissent against other citizens to whom we have delegated certain decision-making responsibilities. A permit isn't about seeking permission; it's about ensuri…
> I like to think that I don't live in a country ruled by a King but rather in a community of citizens who have collectively agreed on a way of doing things That is what a protest is. The collective agrees, not their rulers. > A permit isn't about seeking permission; it's about ensuring an orderly process so that things don't devolve into chaos and bouncy castles. I don't agree here, and even if that were so, there's…
I don't agree with your last point. In a democracy, we have elections at a cadence. If you disagree with protest permits, you are welcome to stand up in the next election, or vote for a representative who will.
We can elections yearly or monthly but man .. how unproductive that would be. The lowered cost of tech may indeed improve participatory democracy.
I see the system working in all of this btw. I support Trudeau but am okay if the liberals get voted out.
Re: Justin Trudeau promises to resign as PM
#957Earlier quoted context omitted.
This is one area leftists and right wingers can agree on -- gun control doesn't work, it punishes minority communities, it targets the wrong things, and it's written in ways that aren't backed by data. Leftists want to be armed for community defense (and because Marx and other leftist writers wrote about the importance of being armed). That said, if I show up at the range with a pride flag on my rifle people lose the…
There is something incredibly amusing to me about hearing Karl Marx described as a "leftist writer"
Is he not?
Re: Justin Trudeau promises to resign as PM
#958Patio11 has some good coverage of Trudeau's handling of the trucker protest against the government's handling of COVID-19 [1]. Whatever you think of the truckers' position or protest tactics, any punishment for their actions ought to go through the laws and court system. Trudeau instead essentially told the banking system "You can't do business with those people, they're terrorists." Patio11's words of what happened…
Debanking someone in our current society is the most abusive things they could have done. It prevented people from accessing and using their own money in an era that is almost cashless. It effectively starved people out and left them trapped. It is so excessively overboard, yet there are those here who will defend it because it happened to those not on their side. When the government changes and it is used against them they will shout and holler with surprise. I'll never understand how people don't see how something that you allow the government to do to others will eventually be used against you too. It's only happened every goddamn time throughout history.
Re: Justin Trudeau promises to resign as PM
#959Patio11 has some good coverage of Trudeau's handling of the trucker protest against the government's handling of COVID-19 [1]. Whatever you think of the truckers' position or protest tactics, any punishment for their actions ought to go through the laws and court system. Trudeau instead essentially told the banking system "You can't do business with those people, they're terrorists." Patio11's words of what happened…
> […] ought to go through the laws and court system. The Emergencies Act is part of the laws of Canada: * https://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/acts/e-4.5/ * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emergencies_Act And there were court orders: * https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-60356461 * 2022 ONSC 1001: https://www.canlii.org/en/on/onsc/doc/2022/2022onsc1001/2022... ; https://www.attorneygeneral.jus.gov.on.ca/english/doc…
As one of Stalin's right hand men once said: "Show me the man and I'll show you the crime."
Re: Justin Trudeau promises to resign as PM
#960Earlier quoted context omitted.
And the court of law later determined that this was an abuse of power and unlawful. The fact that there is an existing law that can be abused does not negate the argument that abusing it is unlawful.
> And the court of law later determined […] And an Act -mandated commission said it was warranted: * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_Order_Emergency_Commiss...
At some point in history it was legal to own slaves ...
The law is a tool for the service of a community, not the other way around.