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Orbit by Mozilla

orbitbymozilla.com

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Re: Orbit by Mozilla

#291

Post by ksec »

mentalgear wrote: post #181

I'm reading a lot of criticism here, some I understand, but honestly, this sounds pretty good for a free LLM service: "Orbit doesn't require account creation or save your session data." Maybe we shouldn't be too critical of Mozilla for providing a privacy-first LLM service - for free. The other big privacy-first LLM provider is Apple, which requires users to have their devices/subscriptions to use, and definitely use…

>Maybe we shouldn't be too critical of Mozilla for providing a privacy-first LLM service

It is just Mozilla have a tendency of chasing hype rather than focusing on what they are doing. During early smartphone era they spend most of the resources trying to write an OS with Javascript ( Firefox OS ) that works on a $35 Smartphone.

Now they are doing it again with AI. Although this time around Firefox is in fairly good shape I guess this isn't too bad. But they need to figure out a way to generate revenue rather than relying on Google. And LLM service isn't it.

Re: Orbit by Mozilla

#292

Post by serbuvlad »

Qem wrote: post #284
serbuvlad wrote: post #283

I use Librewolf (based on Firefox), but about once a year I open Chrome for some shitty website that only works on Chrome. And I use Chrome for a few minutes. It shocks me every time just how fast Chrome is. It is legitimately a superb piece of software. Going to Librewolf after feels like going back ten years in hardware. Can we please start spending some money to make Firefox better? Instead of whatever Mozilla is…

Same number of tabs open and add-ons installed on each?

Damn. Thanks a lot for the comment.

uBlock Origin on both (wouldn't browse the web without it). Vimium and Dark Reader on Librewolf. But turning Dark Reader off does speed it up by _a lot_.

Chrome still seems faster but now they're both playing in the same league.

Never thought about it.

Re: Orbit by Mozilla

#293

Post by caoilte »

serbuvlad wrote: post #279
caoilte wrote: post #227

Earlier quoted context omitted.

people will blame anyone for anything. mozilla is a non-profit so doesn't need to respond to market signals. it would do a lot more and a lot more sustainably if it focused on the core mission of its browser. but these costly "big swings" justify outrageous compensation packages for its executives and so it lets its browser wither.

> mozilla is a non-profit so doesn't need to respond to market signals. No? They, just like every other entity, will have to achieve it's investors goals using the least amount of costs possible. It just happens to be the case that Mozilla's investor's goals aren't more money. For example, if a non-profit wants to build a bridge to a small island to provide the children of that island access to the mainland's schools…

> No? They, just like every other entity, will have to achieve it's investors goals using the least amount of costs possible.

The Mozilla Foundation is funded by donors not investors. The fiduciary duties of non-profit directors do not have to include using the least amount of costs possible.

The Mozilla Foundation's stated goals are "to advance the vision of the future of the internet and technology".

You might reasonably argue that this means copy catting every other product by slapping AI on itself, but I would counter that this actually demonstrates a lack of vision.

Re: Orbit by Mozilla

#294

Post by caoilte »

cge wrote: post #261
caoilte wrote: post #227

Earlier quoted context omitted.

people will blame anyone for anything. mozilla is a non-profit so doesn't need to respond to market signals. it would do a lot more and a lot more sustainably if it focused on the core mission of its browser. but these costly "big swings" justify outrageous compensation packages for its executives and so it lets its browser wither.

Orbit by Mozilla is a product of the non-non-profit Mozilla Corporation [1], not the non-profit Mozilla Foundation. [1]: https://orbitbymozilla.com/terms

It's a wholly owned subsidiary of the Mozilla Foundation. As far as I can tell this is (like most complicated things in life) purely a tax dodge.

Re: Orbit by Mozilla

#295

Post by zozbot234 »

Kuinox wrote: post #235
mentalgear wrote: post #181

I'm reading a lot of criticism here, some I understand, but honestly, this sounds pretty good for a free LLM service: "Orbit doesn't require account creation or save your session data." Maybe we shouldn't be too critical of Mozilla for providing a privacy-first LLM service - for free. The other big privacy-first LLM provider is Apple, which requires users to have their devices/subscriptions to use, and definitely use…

This is a local device LLM, outdated of a whole year, which is massive for LLMs, running on servers. Privacy side, there is little reason to run this on servers, a Pixel 6 could run 7B models at 5 token/s a year ago. It's bad by incompetence, 7B models of a year ago were terribly bad. It's not privacy-first enough, as it's possible to run the AI directly in the browser, but for some reason they didnt do it.

> it's possible to run the AI directly in the browser, but for some reason they didnt do it.

Perhaps this is a proof of concept and they will have optional Firefox integration at a later time. Firefox uses local AI for webpage translation already.

Re: Orbit by Mozilla

#296

Post by caoilte »

mentalgear wrote: post #247
caoilte wrote: post #227

Earlier quoted context omitted.

people will blame anyone for anything. mozilla is a non-profit so doesn't need to respond to market signals. it would do a lot more and a lot more sustainably if it focused on the core mission of its browser. but these costly "big swings" justify outrageous compensation packages for its executives and so it lets its browser wither.

Being a non-profit that does not have a share-price, I'm curious if you have evidence for validity of your assessment of "big swings resulting in compensation packages".

I can offer a rationale that I hope that will be interesting. Evidence is more effort than I'm willing to invest in a random internet conversation. I hope that's okay. I don't mean to cause offense, but neither do I like having an interesting discussion shutdown.

Executive leadership compensation tends to be based on, - the size/prospects/complexity of the company - the compensation received by executives in similar roles at other companies - the amount/type of oversight by the board

This incentivizes executives to increase the complexity of their role in order to justify greater remuneration. The classic example is turning a widget factory into a widget financial services provider. In this case, by behaving like Silicon Valley companies chasing the latest fad the executive leadership of Mozilla get to demand the same remuneration packages.

Re: Orbit by Mozilla

#297

Post by facialwipe »

ksec wrote: post #291
mentalgear wrote: post #181

I'm reading a lot of criticism here, some I understand, but honestly, this sounds pretty good for a free LLM service: "Orbit doesn't require account creation or save your session data." Maybe we shouldn't be too critical of Mozilla for providing a privacy-first LLM service - for free. The other big privacy-first LLM provider is Apple, which requires users to have their devices/subscriptions to use, and definitely use…

>Maybe we shouldn't be too critical of Mozilla for providing a privacy-first LLM service It is just Mozilla have a tendency of chasing hype rather than focusing on what they are doing. During early smartphone era they spend most of the resources trying to write an OS with Javascript ( Firefox OS ) that works on a $35 Smartphone. Now they are doing it again with AI. Although this time around Firefox is in fairly good…

During early smartphone era they spend most of the resources trying to write an OS

Most of Mozilla’s resources have always been spent on Firefox. There was never a cycle where most of Mozilla’s resources were spent on FirefoxOS.

But they need to figure out a way to generate revenue rather than relying on Google.

The percentage of revenue from Google has fallen every year since 2016. Mozilla Corporation had a 33% profit margin in 2022 (The latest data on Wikipedia).

It’s a fantastic business model.

Re: Orbit by Mozilla

#298

Post by rtpg »

grues-dinner wrote: post #259
rtpg wrote: post #193

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Maybe we shouldn't be too critical of Mozilla for providing a privacy-first LLM service - for free. The other big privacy-first LLM provider is Apple, which requires users to have their devices/subscriptions to use, and definitely uses advanced telemetry by default. There is a very fundamental critique here: a service being offered for free like this is being subsidized, messing with the general market dynamics tha…

Does open source not itself severely mess with free market dynamics by having billions and billions of dollars of work being done for free?

I’m not a market fundamentalist, I just don’t like players dumping huge piles of cash in ways to get around market dynamics (especially for AI summaries, which is the computer equivalent of speed reading lessons)

At least open source can outlive the entities that create the thing, and in theory is more about sharing process rather than trying to stomp out smaller players.

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