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Trump sides with Musk on support for H-1B visas for foreign tech workers

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Re: Trump sides with Musk on support for H-1B visas for foreign tech workers

#81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I must admit; you actually try to convey why the US is great besides making money (or, as many maga idiots cite; gun ownership and 'freedom'. Kudos for that; you cited 0 things I would personally be interested in; we have bbqs and national holidays; both are nice the first time and then, well, not so much. The rest shows that you over sampled the koolaid and actually believe trump is going to make things 'even better…

> you cited 0 things I would personally be interested in what things are you interested in that are cultural? > as hard times coming This wouldn't surprise me, but unless it happens in 2nd to 4th year of his presidency, it's almost certainly going to be the bipartisan drunken sailor spending of Congress since the pandemic our country likely had a hand in causing. Between accelerating national debt and our disastrous…

> Hope that's working out for you. It's working out here for me.

Well, that is all that matters. We both will be dead soon anyway, so picking where to sit it out is important.

Re: Trump sides with Musk on support for H-1B visas for foreign tech workers

#82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not surprised by your interpretation of a lot of my comment. Coastal/Urban America hasn't had anything resembling a common culture for a lot longer than 8 years now. I'd say that it's been a wholly different place pre- and post- 9/11. Your view of America is limited by your experience of it in the past 8 years. I assure you, it was very very different even just 20 years ago. America pre-social media was a very ve…

>> America was never a "high trust culture". > Absolutely not true. It was much much higher trust when I first moved here in 1986 I don't believe it, especially given that you're saying this is due to immigration. What do you mean specifically when you say this? Do you mean there was less violent crime? Because that isn't true. Do you mean that there's more ethnic conflict now? That also isn't really true. America ha…

For the most part, my observations is that we now just put up with rampant property crime and very little of it gets reported. This isn't surprising because getting cops to respond to property crime reports when you call 911 now takes so long that it isn't even worth it.

I've personally experienced more property crime and other issues in the past 5 to 10 years than my entire family experienced in the 29 to 34 years prior.

About a month and a half a go, I had some kids damage my car in the supermarket parking lot. Called 911. Waiting on hold for like 20 minutes because it wasn't an emergency. Cops didn't show for an hour. Called back, changed the address of the incident to my home. Cops ended up showing up 13 hours after the incident between 1 and 2 am. Growing up, I don't recall ever waiting more than 30 minutes for anything when 911 was called. I wouldn't have even called 911 for this issue if I had a choice. Supermarket wouldn't provide surveillance footage without a police report filed.

The statistics simply aren't telling the whole story. People have largely given up on reporting things because they've become so commonplace and folks don't expect anything to be done. Crime clearance rates for all crimes are down all over the country as we lose faith that anything will be done.

I wish I had the study I read one time handy, but it was comparing crime stats between the US and Japan over time and it basically showed that you can get to a point where crime has gotten so bad that it's no longer reported because folks no longer expect any resolution from reporting crime. This closely matches my personal experience with property crime that has impacted me and others I know.

Even the arsonist who tried to set my home on fire two years ago while on a meth bender is getting out in 5 years from now. The charges were two separate cases. One was 5 counts of arson 1 and the other was 1 count of arson 1 and violating a restraining order IIRC. Pled everything down to 6 counts of arson 2. 7 years total, with two years already served. In the end, one entire house burned down. One was severely damage and the other had minor damage because the fires were put out promptly.

We wouldn't bother to lock our doors growing up. Today, I probably record someone checking to see if my car is unlocked (crime of opportunity) about once every one to two months.

Re: Trump sides with Musk on support for H-1B visas for foreign tech workers

#83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here are the folks who contributed to the "Attention is all you need" paper [1] which changed the world as we know it, and the countries they came from. I rest my case. Ashish Vaswani: India Noam Shazeer: USA Niki Parmar: India Jakob Uszkoreit: Germany Llion Jones: USA Aidan Gomez: British Canadian Lukasz Kaiser: Poland Illia Polosukhin: Ukraine [1] https://arxiv.org/abs/1706.03762

I'm dumbfounded that some people think high-skilled immigration is negative sum. It is so glaringly positive sum. Another country invested 20 years to train a 130 IQ person from birth to tertiary educated. And then the US gets to skim the top 0.1% off that expensive process without paying a dime. These immigrants then generate consumption, scientific discoveries and found companies in their prime working years, which…

I don’t think a rational person can deny the value of skilled immigration, but the context in which immigration exists in the US is not a simple dichotomy between net benefit/loss.

Wealth inequality has followed a trend of concentrating towards the top over many decades. (https://www.pewresearch.org/social-trends/2020/01/09/trends-...), exacerbated by events such as 2008 recession and Covid. Even with increased productivity, salaries have not always kept pace with inflation or cost of living in many US cities (https://www.americanbar.org/groups/crsj/publications/human_r...).

Not only do US workers already have to compete with offshoring (https://www.forbes.com/sites/jackkelly/2024/10/15/the-global...) which is now impacting formerly safe white collar jobs like accounting and engineering, education costs in the US are also some of the highest in the world, raising the barrier to entry and putting domestic workers at a competitive disadvantage against global markets (https://www.statista.com/statistics/238733/expenditure-on-ed... ).

HN obviously tends to skew towards tech and Silicon Valley; an industry and location that has been somewhat insulated from these effects, but its a very real struggle for many people throughout the US across varied fields from finance and accounting, to medicine and engineering.

It is in this environment in which the current H1B debate exists. While there may be a net benefit to the US economy overall from skilled immigration, much of that benefit (similar to higher productivity) tends to increasingly be enjoyed at the top socioeconomic level. The “layers of indirection” are in many cases owned and controlled by corporations through IP law, patents, copyright, non-compete and NDAs, and other legal mechanisms, which can delay their benefit to society at large, and create further perverse incentives if not regulated fairly.

And while globalization as a root cause might be inevitable, it can certainly be managed through regulation in a way that more equitably distributes the benefits. It can also be manipulated by regulatory capture to enable corporations to lower costs and increase profits at the expense of US labor. There are many examples of this occurring before now. Any sound policy change regarding the H1B visa program needs to take all benefits/risks into account, and I personally would like to see a little more nuance from the incoming executive administration in this regard. Folks like Musk and Ramaswamy have a lot of profit to gain from importing cheaper skilled labor, with a higher degree of control over domestic employees vs those located overseas. I also have a hard time believing any corporate executives would have predominately altruistic intentions, and there is an obvious conflict of interest in them being involved in any policy decisions that impact their balance sheets. I realize this doesn’t negate a net positive benefit, but when that benefit is largely realized by a select few through regulatory capture, and is easily abused, it’s not anti-immigrant to criticize policy implementation.

Re: Trump sides with Musk on support for H-1B visas for foreign tech workers

#85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here are the folks who contributed to the "Attention is all you need" paper [1] which changed the world as we know it, and the countries they came from. I rest my case. Ashish Vaswani: India Noam Shazeer: USA Niki Parmar: India Jakob Uszkoreit: Germany Llion Jones: USA Aidan Gomez: British Canadian Lukasz Kaiser: Poland Illia Polosukhin: Ukraine [1] https://arxiv.org/abs/1706.03762

I'm dumbfounded that some people think high-skilled immigration is negative sum. It is so glaringly positive sum. Another country invested 20 years to train a 130 IQ person from birth to tertiary educated. And then the US gets to skim the top 0.1% off that expensive process without paying a dime. These immigrants then generate consumption, scientific discoveries and found companies in their prime working years, which…

The problem is that a lot of the H1B people being brought in to fill jobs Americans could do aren’t the top 0.1%. Far from it. No one is against bringing the top 0.1% here.

Re: Trump sides with Musk on support for H-1B visas for foreign tech workers

#86
post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm dumbfounded that some people think high-skilled immigration is negative sum. It is so glaringly positive sum. Another country invested 20 years to train a 130 IQ person from birth to tertiary educated. And then the US gets to skim the top 0.1% off that expensive process without paying a dime. These immigrants then generate consumption, scientific discoveries and found companies in their prime working years, which…

Nobody here is anti-immigration. The reality is that the H1B program is being used not to bring in individuals with 130+ IQ, but essentially anyone with a bachelor's degree, which can be easily obtained from diploma mills. In some third-world countries, you can even buy your degree outright. For the top 0.1%, there are O1 visas, as well as EB1 and EB2-NIW visas — the latter two don't even require an employer and can…

In the last few days I've seen hundreds of pure anti-immigration posts across various tech focused communities.

O1 has an incredibly high bar and not something that "this person has a PhD from a top institution and a strong publication record" can guarantee.

Re: Trump sides with Musk on support for H-1B visas for foreign tech workers

#87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you're so unhappy in the US, why are you here? Why not move back to wherever you're happier that has culture when you think the US has no culture? my wife likes money. she said 2 more years and then we are out to retire. I have been begging my wife to move for the last 11 years since my kid has been born as I consider the worst thing I ever did as a father was to subject her childhood to this environment. she is o…

Got it. Wish you the best. Wish you had had a better experience here like I have. Only thing I can surmise is that you ended up in some cities in your list that left a lot to be desired. Denver is the only place on that list I'd ever consider living in. I'm unfamiliar with Fayetteville, AR, so no thoughts there, but I'd never want to live in DC, Chicago or St Louis. What was your favorite city out of all those and wh…

What was your favorite city out of all those and what was your least favorite?

Washington DC - by far. I have been everywhere in the US as well except for Alaska, for business and pleasure. Washington DC is the only place that has some form of a soul :)

Are you and your wife from the same country? Did you meet in the US or came here together?

I am from Serbia, my wife is from Croatia. We met in Washington DC. We came under different circumstances, I came to play basketball and my wife came as a refugee.

Re: Trump sides with Musk on support for H-1B visas for foreign tech workers

#88
post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nobody here is anti-immigration. The reality is that the H1B program is being used not to bring in individuals with 130+ IQ, but essentially anyone with a bachelor's degree, which can be easily obtained from diploma mills. In some third-world countries, you can even buy your degree outright. For the top 0.1%, there are O1 visas, as well as EB1 and EB2-NIW visas — the latter two don't even require an employer and can…

If H1B immigrants generates more tax revenue and contribute more on average than locals, largely because of gems like Sundar Pichai that couldn't make the bureaucratic credentialist hurdle of the O1, then what's the problem? It should be expanded and reformed, not contracted and reformed. If you're concerned about degree mills then reform that aspect while expanding the net intake.

I’d be fine if a third of the total compensation was diverted to a fund that all but takes a minimum of 50k per person per job /gives 100k minimum tax-free per affected citizen in the lowest LCOL, both adjusted upward for locality. To make people whole, that fund would cover citizens in the job market from 2003 onwards that specialized in anything with exposure to the various programs that disincentivized citizens. Then have it apply irrespective of job status.

If you want the best and brightest, pay for the damages created by badly formed policy.

Re: Trump sides with Musk on support for H-1B visas for foreign tech workers

#89
post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

there is very little legit use of H1B, the tech companies are abusing it by not hiring US employees in lieu of getting underpaid H1B’s who have no option to leave for a better opportunity or higher pay (or to unionize) - modern day white collar “slavery”

The customer (companies) don’t think the price for US employees is a good deal and prefer to find a cheaper option that can’t quit as easily. In market terms, H1B workers are simply a better product - slightly cheaper (because companies can game the system) and more predictable (because they can’t show the employer the middle finger).

As stated up thread, treat that as an externality that the business ends up paying to the citizens. Offer them an opportunity to fully uncap their favorite programs on the condition that a large chunk of total compensation (with minimums and locality adjustments) will be paid to citizens that essentially doubles or triples most citizen salaries.

Re: Trump sides with Musk on support for H-1B visas for foreign tech workers

#90
post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The customer (companies) don’t think the price for US employees is a good deal and prefer to find a cheaper option that can’t quit as easily. In market terms, H1B workers are simply a better product - slightly cheaper (because companies can game the system) and more predictable (because they can’t show the employer the middle finger).

No, you missed the point of the GP. The companies don't want them because they are cheaper, they want them because they have less rights. > who have no option to leave for a better opportunity or higher pay (or to unionize) The companies don't want cheaper labor. They want slave labor.

You are missing the point: if they have fewer rights, they are cheaper in the long run.
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