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Trump sides with Musk on support for H-1B visas for foreign tech workers

theguardian.com

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Re: Trump sides with Musk on support for H-1B visas for foreign tech workers

#51
post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

there is very little legit use of H1B, the tech companies are abusing it by not hiring US employees in lieu of getting underpaid H1B’s who have no option to leave for a better opportunity or higher pay (or to unionize) - modern day white collar “slavery”

The customer (companies) don’t think the price for US employees is a good deal and prefer to find a cheaper option that can’t quit as easily. In market terms, H1B workers are simply a better product - slightly cheaper (because companies can game the system) and more predictable (because they can’t show the employer the middle finger).

No, you missed the point of the GP. The companies don't want them because they are cheaper, they want them because they have less rights.

> who have no option to leave for a better opportunity or higher pay (or to unionize)

The companies don't want cheaper labor. They want slave labor.

Re: Trump sides with Musk on support for H-1B visas for foreign tech workers

#52

Wonder what people think about this on both or multiple sides of the equation.

People say this has upset Trump supporters who are supposedly "anti-immigration" but most of the Trump supporters I know are immigrants and nobody has a major problem with this.

I voted for Trump and an immigrant and I'm mixed on immigration.

I've been in the US for 29 years now and I'm a US citizen. I'm more American in attitude than most Americans I know.

I consider myself a nationalist. Immigration has been both good and bad for America and both sides in this debate are being super dishonest.

First and foremost, I strongly believe that elected representatives should represent the best interests of their citizens and ONLY their citizens. The best interest of potential future citizens is not something they should even give a thought to.

Some immigration is in the best interest of the citizens of a country. Skimming the top 0.1% or maybe even just the top 0.01% of the best and the brightest abroad absolutely is in the best interests of Americans. That's the question that should be asked when admitting an immigrant: "Is this person a net benefit to the citizens of this country I was elected to represent?"

If the answer to that question is "Yes", then the next question should be "How should we admit this person to come work in the US so that Americans get the benefits and we mitigate any downside from allowing them in?"

Neither of these questions are being asked.

A country is basically a team like Elon said and we are in competition with other teams like Europe, China, India, etc. It is worth building out the best team, but that can't be done in a way where you hurt the citizens you were elected to represent.

Before I continue, one big point about American citizens. They aren't all white as has been misrepresented in this debate. A lot of them are first and second generation non-whites. American-born folks of Indian, Chinese, Hispanic, etc, descent are all American citizens currently being hurt by the H1-B program.

Couple of major issues with the current H1-B program:

First, it absolutely must cost more to bring in an immigrant to do a job than to hire an American. Under no situation should it be allowed to depress wages. If a citizen costs X, it should cost like 1.5x or some value like that to import the talent you need if you genuinely can't find the talent you need domestically.

Second, the visa should belong the the person being brought to the US. A company can sponsor them and maybe get exclusive access for some short period of time like the first year or so, but after that, the person should not have their visa tied to the employer that sponsored them. If they get a good perf review after their first year on the job, they absolutely should get an extension to stay another N years like 3 to 5, but at this point they are totally free to work for any other company with zero risk of losing their visa status if they choose not to continue working for the employer that sponsored them. If that employer wants to keep them, they'll have to pay the premium to keep them and treat them well. No immigrant should ever feel like an indentured servant.

Third, scrutiny should be applied to all companies involved in using the H1-B program as a visa mill and to co-ethnic nepotism.

You absolutely need to make sure that companies aren't "selling" the visas. For example, someone in country X should not be able to pay or perform a favor for a company in the US to get a visa. A genuine need needs to be demonstrated and we need to make sure there is no quid pro quo.

Co-ethnic nepotism is another big one. Executives and managers should not be able to sponsor H1-Bs from their country of origin or from their religious group. If the CEO of a company is from country X and manager of the team is from country Y, then the H1-B visa cannot be filled by someone from either country X or Y. There are 195 countries in the world. Removing the United States, country X and country Y, still leaves 192 other countries from which to find talent.

Lastly, we need to focus on assimilation. I have citizenship from three countries myself and I choose to live in the US because I value US culture (or at least what it was 10 to 15 years ago).

If I wanted to live and work in the other countries in which I could legally work, I'd move to those countries. I don't want that. I want to live and work in the US because I value US culture. If you disproportionately bring in immigrants from particular countries, you turn the US into those other countries for better and for worse. This happens both at the national level and at the local level. I don't want it at either.

In fact, when you disproportionately bring in people from country X into a specific locality, you make it harder for those folks to assimilate. This allows the formation of ethnic/cultural enclaves. This should not happen. You should have a mix of folks from multiple countries in a place so they actually co-mingle and assimilate to become Americans. Not hyphenated Americans, but bonafide Americans that adopt America as the home and the country in which they pride themselves.

Completely disregarding assimilation is going to kill the Golden Goose that Elon Musk values. He can build SpaceX here in American but not in country X or country Y. However, if we culturally turn the US into country X or country Y or just kill the current culture we have now with an indiscriminate immigration policy, then he won't be able to keep building SpaceX in the US in the way he has in the past. He may be able to fix the regulatory hurdles to getting to Mars with DOGE, but he won't be able to fix the culture of the country if we don't prevent the negative aspects of the change in culture. America today is already a much lower trust culture than when I moved here 29 years ago and the continued loss of trust threatens being able to get anything done together as Americans. Coethnic nepotism within a firm, for example, absolutely hurts the ability for that firm to fulfill on its mission as different enclaves within the firm fight with one another for a bigger piece of the pie instead of working together to grow the size of the pie.

America isn't just an idea and it isn't just an economic zone. It is a nation of people and the makeup of those people can evolve over time, but it should remain a nation of people.

Basically, I want to Make American a High Trust Culture Again. This has nothing to do with race or ethnicity. It's culture and it requires assimilation and a common identity.

Our motto is e pluribus unum, not e pluribus pluribus.

Re: Trump sides with Musk on support for H-1B visas for foreign tech workers

#53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People say this has upset Trump supporters who are supposedly "anti-immigration" but most of the Trump supporters I know are immigrants and nobody has a major problem with this.

I voted for Trump and an immigrant and I'm mixed on immigration. I've been in the US for 29 years now and I'm a US citizen. I'm more American in attitude than most Americans I know. I consider myself a nationalist. Immigration has been both good and bad for America and both sides in this debate are being super dishonest. First and foremost, I strongly believe that elected representatives should represent the best int…

One more thing I would add is if we don't address the training and skill issue of Americans, that isn't a racial issue that impacts only those of European descent. Every immigrant that comes here and has children will have to deal with that for their kids. Folks from country X and country Y are going to find that their kids are in the same unfortunate situation as American kids of European or mostly European descent. They too are already find themselves displaced by immigrants (even from the country from which their parents hailed) for jobs and housing if we don't fix immigration ASAP.

Re: Trump sides with Musk on support for H-1B visas for foreign tech workers

#54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People say this has upset Trump supporters who are supposedly "anti-immigration" but most of the Trump supporters I know are immigrants and nobody has a major problem with this.

I voted for Trump and an immigrant and I'm mixed on immigration. I've been in the US for 29 years now and I'm a US citizen. I'm more American in attitude than most Americans I know. I consider myself a nationalist. Immigration has been both good and bad for America and both sides in this debate are being super dishonest. First and foremost, I strongly believe that elected representatives should represent the best int…

I want to live and work in the US because I value US culture

you mean you value US salary, right? there is no such thing as “US culture…”

your plan for fixing H1B is SPOT ON but of course it will 1,000,000% never happen as the programs main purpose is labor exploitation and wage depression - nothing else (I am immigrant, former H1B-er and eternally grateful the program existed…)

Re: Trump sides with Musk on support for H-1B visas for foreign tech workers

#55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I voted for Trump and an immigrant and I'm mixed on immigration. I've been in the US for 29 years now and I'm a US citizen. I'm more American in attitude than most Americans I know. I consider myself a nationalist. Immigration has been both good and bad for America and both sides in this debate are being super dishonest. First and foremost, I strongly believe that elected representatives should represent the best int…

I want to live and work in the US because I value US culture you mean you value US salary, right? there is no such thing as “US culture…” your plan for fixing H1B is SPOT ON but of course it will 1,000,000% never happen as the programs main purpose is labor exploitation and wage depression - nothing else (I am immigrant, former H1B-er and eternally grateful the program existed…)

Bullshit that there is no such thing as American culture. I don't even understand how someone can say that with a straight face unless they've only ever lived in the bubble of a major US city that has a lot of immigrants.

29 years here and I've lived in four major US cities, one minor suburban US city, one tiny suburban town and my wife and I are planning on retiring to an extremely rural red-blooded American community hours from any major city. There absolutely is American culture. To say it doesn't exist means you either don't see it out of virtue of where you live or you don't see it just like a fish doesn't know it's wet. I've also lived in two wildly different countries from the US. There absolutely is American culture.

I could actually live much much better in one of the other countries for which I have citizenship than in the US.

How long have you lived in the US and where have you lived since moving here?

Re: Trump sides with Musk on support for H-1B visas for foreign tech workers

#56
post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I know a lot of Trump supporters who are nice people, but I also know a great many that are overt racists. It’s never against me (they make the point they aren’t against “people like me”) but there is always a group they don’t like - other Latin Americans (I’m from Brazil, but they also are usually surprised when they learn that), Middle-Eastern, Indians, and, lately, Chinese (and others, because they can’t tell the…

Many Trump supporters specifically, and USians more generally, don't know a lot of things that many people in other countries know; basic general knowledge about the world, including other countries, being a prime example.

For example, I've across some of them who think that the (sole) language of India is "Indian"! :)

There is no language called Indian, dudes. India is both very diverse (regionally and subregionally and fractally), and a melting pot, like the US, and has been that way, for centuries before the US became like that. In both cases, it is due to both being huge, geographically, and due to the invasions in both countries.

India has many languages and many more dialects.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Languages_of_India

JFC.

Re: Trump sides with Musk on support for H-1B visas for foreign tech workers

#57
post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If the wages are rising that means demand is greater than supply. Tech companies are telling the truth when they say there is a shortage of workers.

Yes, and you can fulfill this growing demand by raising wages, which is essentially the market mechanism to bring in additional supply. Another way to address this is by importing cheaper labor from abroad. For American workers, it is better to let wages rise than to import foreign labor (which would ultimately suppress wage growth). Therefore, importing labor does suppress wages — as you've essentially demonstrated…

there is another option the companies can choose to use. Export the jobs.aka offshoring. Tons of companies do this now, not sure if its super productive, but it seems to be a viable alternative for companies to use/abuse. End result is the same. Lower job profiles/ lower salaries / lower job openings.

Raising wages is probably the last option on the checklist.

Re: Trump sides with Musk on support for H-1B visas for foreign tech workers

#58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I want to live and work in the US because I value US culture you mean you value US salary, right? there is no such thing as “US culture…” your plan for fixing H1B is SPOT ON but of course it will 1,000,000% never happen as the programs main purpose is labor exploitation and wage depression - nothing else (I am immigrant, former H1B-er and eternally grateful the program existed…)

Bullshit that there is no such thing as American culture. I don't even understand how someone can say that with a straight face unless they've only ever lived in the bubble of a major US city that has a lot of immigrants. 29 years here and I've lived in four major US cities, one minor suburban US city, one tiny suburban town and my wife and I are planning on retiring to an extremely rural red-blooded American communi…

How long have you lived in the US ans where have you lived since moving here

Since 1992 - in order: - Springfield IL

- Chicago IL

- Fayetteville AR

- St Louis MO

- Washington DC

- Denver CO

- Chicago IL

- Washington DC

what is US culture? parents in retirement homes, kids cannot walk alone by themselves anywhere without someone calling Cops, everyone at home buying shit on amazon and watching netflix, psychiatrists everywhere cause everyone is lonely, 50% of population obese … which part is best part of the culture?!

Re: Trump sides with Musk on support for H-1B visas for foreign tech workers

#59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm dumbfounded that some people think high-skilled immigration is negative sum. It is so glaringly positive sum. Another country invested 20 years to train a 130 IQ person from birth to tertiary educated. And then the US gets to skim the top 0.1% off that expensive process without paying a dime. These immigrants then generate consumption, scientific discoveries and found companies in their prime working years, which…

there is a huge difference between being “anti-immigration” and critiquing H1B program which is what we are doing here… a very very huge difference :) I am an immigrant so 1,000,000% not anti-immigration, everyone around me besides native americans is also an immigrant. I am also former H1B-er. the program is deeply flawed and is used for exploitation more than anything else

There is not such a big difference in the median critique. There are scarce voices -- perhaps yours -- saying we should reform H1B to make it easier for immigrants to change jobs or obtain passports or acquire the visa in the first place, which Vivek has been very clear on from the beginning that this is his intention.

But the large majority of voices on social media are using this as an opportunity to sling broadly anti-immigration and nativist catchphrases, framing the H1B as a zero sum contest between the immigrant and the local. It's factually the opposite of the truth. Even if H1B doesn't get any reforms, it's better than nothing for both the immigrant and the US, but that would not be the impression you would get from the avalanche of people committed to the Lump of Labor fallacy.

Re: Trump sides with Musk on support for H-1B visas for foreign tech workers

#60
post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm dumbfounded that some people think high-skilled immigration is negative sum. It is so glaringly positive sum. Another country invested 20 years to train a 130 IQ person from birth to tertiary educated. And then the US gets to skim the top 0.1% off that expensive process without paying a dime. These immigrants then generate consumption, scientific discoveries and found companies in their prime working years, which…

Nobody here is anti-immigration. The reality is that the H1B program is being used not to bring in individuals with 130+ IQ, but essentially anyone with a bachelor's degree, which can be easily obtained from diploma mills. In some third-world countries, you can even buy your degree outright. For the top 0.1%, there are O1 visas, as well as EB1 and EB2-NIW visas — the latter two don't even require an employer and can…

I seriously doubt anyone in the above list got in through the O1 visa.
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