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Assisted dying now accounts for one in 20 Canada deaths

bbc.com

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Re: Assisted dying now accounts for one in 20 Canada deaths

#551

Post by int_19h »

toasterlovin wrote: post #381
tivert wrote: post #289

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What is the steelman argument for why it's okay to help people kill themselves a la MAID, but not okay to execute murderers? I would assume it's something that centers personal bodily autonomy above all other competing moral considerations. Under that libertarian moral framework, the murderer who does not want to be executed cannot be killed because they don't want it, while the person who want MAID can be killed j…

Under that framework, could it be argued that the murderer has implicitly consented by committing an act they should have reasonably foreseen would result in their own death? (Not well thought out here, just trying this argument on for size)

Depends. Is it okay to sell oneself into slavery? Some radical right libertarians will answer that question positively, but even for libertarians this is a fringe position.

Re: Assisted dying now accounts for one in 20 Canada deaths

#552

Post by quasse »

karencarits wrote: post #477
Analemma_ wrote: post #237

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> People could choose this purelyto avoid additional cost to their relatives. Why is this a bad thing? If there's a choice between giving $100,000 to my descendants and using it to keep me intubated in a hospital bed for an extra 6 months, I find the former preferable by far. If someone else doesn't, that's fine, but I find comments like this both annoying and creepily authoritarian in saying that the correct choice…

Not the op but I guess the idea is that questions of life and death should not primarily be economical questions. You are free to disagree, of course, and there is, at some level, economical considerations for all medical treatments. But at least I'm my country is there a sharp divide; an individual should receive the best available treatment without economical considerations. What treatments that are available for v…

> Not the op but I guess the idea is that questions of life and death should not primarily be economical questions.

Sure, but as an American life and death is already an economical question *above all else*. The quality of medical care that I receive is already directly linked to how much money is in my bank account and how much my employer is willing to pay for a medical plan.

End of life care in the US is designed with the primary goal of vacuuming every asset out of you and then letting you die once it's gone. It seems unethical to say "sorry, you don't get to opt out of this. Everyone's got to go through the whole process."

Re: Assisted dying now accounts for one in 20 Canada deaths

#553

Post by mattpallissard »

Rebelgecko wrote: post #332
patrickhogan1 wrote: post #148

Strange question but how does this affect life insurance? Typically a suicide would not be covered.

Not sure how it works in Canada, but in the US I think most life insurance actually does cover suicide. There's usually just a stipulation that suicide isn't covered if it happens immediately after someone signs up

I could be wrong, but I think that term life insurance usually pays out but a whole life policy doesn't. At least that's been how my policies were.

Re: Assisted dying now accounts for one in 20 Canada deaths

#555

Post by int_19h »

toasterlovin wrote: post #263

What is the steelman argument for why it's okay to help people kill themselves a la MAID, but not okay to execute murderers? (Assuming the argument against capital punishment is that mistakes are often or sometimes made)

The other argument against capital punishment is that, aside from the satisfaction of watching someone who "deserves it" suffer, it doesn't really achieve any practical effect that detention doesn't. This makes even a single mistake morally unacceptable since it doesn't really "buy" anything.

With MAID, the practical effect is a very direct and incontrovertibly causal alleviation of suffering on a large scale, which has to be balanced against potential induced suffering due to mistakes.

Re: Assisted dying now accounts for one in 20 Canada deaths

#556

Post by jamesfinlayson »

nicoburns wrote: post #334
pinkmuffinere wrote: post #269

Earlier quoted context omitted.

(I’m not op) The full quote is > At the end, while technically alive, so little of who they were as persons remained, they might as well have been dead. It sounds like there was some severe mental decline. When undergoing this kind of mental decline, does anybody remain happy? That’s meant as a genuine question, not rhetorical. Of course I’ve heard of the cases where people are constantly scared, feel unsafe, confuse…

> When undergoing this kind of mental decline, does anybody remain happy? According to some people I know who work in care homes: yes, some people do. They're confused, have no idea what's going on, but are nevertheless mostly happy. (but that is in no way to negate the fact that many don't)

Yeah any time I've been to a nursing home they have a lot of activities to keep them stimulated - usually some sort of musical performance every week day (usually by volunteer community groups, sometimes school kids), themed days ( Valentine's Day, farm day, pet day, Easter, Christmas, etc) - even the immobile and mentally-declined still enjoy the music and patting a dog.

Re: Assisted dying now accounts for one in 20 Canada deaths

#557

Post by s1artibartfast »

lolinder wrote: post #481
zaptheimpaler wrote: post #266

Anyone who has worked at a hospital can tell you how many people die in needless pain and suffering when nothing more can really be done for them. They just wait out the clock in pain or do increasingly horrible procedures that give them a little more time with terrible quality of life. 5% is probably an underestimate of that number. Nurses/doctors don't like to speak up about that part and people don't want to confr…

Like with so many things, what terrifies me is where you draw the line. The cases you're describing—where someone currently has to choose between paying ridiculous amounts of money to continue living in pain while confined to a hospital bed versus dying in terrible pain because the doctors are forbidden from helping you along—these are the easy ones. But we also have stories here of people deciding to die while they'…

I think there are a lot of people that are absolutists on the point. If the whole universe depends on one person's continued existence, that would still not justify forced prolongation.

If there is one thing that should be beyond social control, it is the choice over existence itself.

Re: Assisted dying now accounts for one in 20 Canada deaths

#558

Post by int_19h »

encoderer wrote: post #499
encoderer wrote: post #351

What if governments couldn’t create cute names like MAID? I know it seems silly that a cute name would make something more likable because it shouldnt but i think probably it does, and what is the defense for having them anyway?

Downvotes but nobody can explain why we have cute palatable name for a government initiate related to killing people. We don’t have one for execution. Wouldn’t it be absurd if somebody coined an acronym for it like WOAP?

We do have one for execution, obviously: it's "execution", not "killing".

"Killing" by itself doesn't accurately describe what MAID is, because it's not just ending someone's life, but doing so on a consensual basis after establishing that they are sound of mind and have a good reason to desire that.

Re: Assisted dying now accounts for one in 20 Canada deaths

#559

Post by proactivesvcs »

Salgat wrote: post #291
guyzero wrote: post #131

My Canadian parents are in their 80's so naturally a lot of their friends of the same age are dying. And two of them have been via MAID. In one case, which was surprising to me, a man who had survived cancer - he was not terminal but certainly wasn't getting any better - elected to die via MAID after his wife died. She passed, he called his doctor and less than a week later he was also dead. He got a chance to visit…

I know it's morbid to discuss but the relief of financial burden on society is also significant. Not only do they die with dignity, but they are giving back to society.

They've already given to society, probably for most of their lives. It is now their turn to have some small amount returned.

Re: Assisted dying now accounts for one in 20 Canada deaths

#560

Post by lotsofpulp »

bdndndndbve wrote: post #487
eastbound wrote: post #412

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem I have with MAiD is I’m not sure the subject really decided it. Forged signatures do exist (a lot) and you’re only a socialist state away from trying to save on public health expenditures by incinerating unwilling patients after pretending their agreement. Without much trace than two witnesses who say “He said it”. Not like it already happened for handicapped people in Germany. I’m quite sure it already h…

I mean if you replace "taxes" with "profits" you have the current American healthcare system. Condemning people to die from a lack of treatment in order to save on profits.

That does not make any sense. Old people’s healthcare gets paid by the US government, literally everyone up and down the healthcare chain earns more profit by extending someone’s life who would rather die.
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