Assisted dying now accounts for one in 20 Canada deaths • Hacker News Board

Re: Assisted dying now accounts for one in 20 Canada deaths

#131

Post by guyzero » Thu, Dec 12, 2024, 7:30 PM UTC

My Canadian parents are in their 80's so naturally a lot of their friends of the same age are dying. And two of them have been via MAID.

In one case, which was surprising to me, a man who had survived cancer - he was not terminal but certainly wasn't getting any better - elected to die via MAID after his wife died. She passed, he called his doctor and less than a week later he was also dead. He got a chance to visit his family, apparently drive around his hobby farm one more time and then that was it. He didn't want to deal with being alone and seriously ill.

Another friend was in renal and congestive heart failure and possibly could have lived longer but they were driving 100km daily to get to the nearest dialysis clinic and again, this person was definitely dying. So made and appointment and decided to go sooner rather than suffer along for an indeterminate amount of time.

It's quite surprising to me, but these people are in their mid to late 80's and of sound mind and know what they want.

Re: Assisted dying now accounts for one in 20 Canada deaths

#132

Post by bluefirebrand » Thu, Dec 12, 2024, 7:31 PM UTC

afh1 wrote: post #106

gnfargbl wrote: post #41

During the recent debate around the Assisted Dying Bill in the UK, I listened to a radio phone-in in which a palliative care doctor explained that it wasn't possible to relieve all suffering for all patients. They relayed an example of a person who had spent their last days vomiting fully-formed faeces. If we can prevent five, ten or perhaps twenty percent of people having gruesome deaths, then not doing so feels lik…

There is no "we". There are people and their bodies and their wishes. And authoritarians who want a say on it. Doesn't matter if nice sounding words like law and democracy are used to describe the tyranny.

Reality is much messier than "There are people and their bodies and their wishes."

There are whole categories of people who we consider not well enough to make good choices about their bodies and lives, for a variety of reasons

Children are not emotionally mature or responsible enough to make such choices

Mentally ill people are sometimes in an altered state of mind where they are not making good decisions that are consistent with their regular state of mind

Some people are very suggestible and will more or less agree with anything that someone else is telling them to do, even if it is not in their best interest. People who have just received bad news (like a scary medical diagnosis) can easily fall into this, and just agree with whatever someone tells them

It's all well and good to want to respect people's wishes for their lives, but society does have some responsibility to ensure they aren't being pressured by outside forces into acting against their will or against their own interests

That's not authoritarian, it is pro-social

Re: Assisted dying now accounts for one in 20 Canada deaths

#133

Post by motohagiography » Thu, Dec 12, 2024, 7:31 PM UTC

tivert wrote: post #85

ben30 wrote: post #13

Fifteen years ago, flying into Vancouver, a local told me charities would give homeless people one-way bus tickets there from colder regions of Canada to prevent winter deaths. No return tickets in spring. Calls into question what we consider "charitable" when the solution is just moving vulnerable people elsewhere. Worrying parallel: will euthanasia become another "solution" for those who can't afford proper care an…

> Worrying parallel: will euthanasia become another "solution" for those who can't afford proper care and treatment? Moving homeless people to warmer cities and offering euthanasia to those who can't afford treatment both avoid fixing the underlying problems. Almost certainly. IIRC, in Canada there have already been cases where people got euthanasia mainly because their disability payments were insufficient.

I'm in Canada and I have a relative in hospital who say they are either returning home or doing MAID, as they were not going into a home or "assisted living." coming to terms with your own death is part of the culture here now.

Many people clearly prefer death to being dependent on services. Doctors themselves are known to eschew chemotherapy and difficult surgeries. Most men don't even see the doctors their taxes pay for "free" because the system is so bureaucratic nobody with any responsibilities can afford the time to use it, or the risks of being caught up in the system. Dignity is a big deal for people and many prefer to die with some of it than to live without it.

I think MAID itself is poorly defined and implemented, as really, the health system had no problem killing thousands of young people with loose opioid perscriptions, I don't like that MAID requires allocating execution powers to doctors and their increasingly politicized delegates. death as a service doesn't seem ethical compared to prescription and technical options.

the heart of it is that the institutions don't provide dignity and so people are choosing death. this seems lost on the leadership and its aspirational classes.

Re: Assisted dying now accounts for one in 20 Canada deaths

#134

Post by bluefirebrand » Thu, Dec 12, 2024, 7:33 PM UTC

Retric wrote: post #120

PittleyDunkin wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"tyranny" also seems like a concept mostly unrelated to the topic at hand. Practically speaking, nobody can really prevent you from taking your own life.

If only that were true. Someone unable to move is unable to take their own life without assistance. A surprisingly large percentage of people go through some horrific experiences before their bodies completely fail.

This is a vanishingly small percent of cases

Someone who is unable to move is probably also unable to unambiguously communicate their wish to be euthanized as well so I really don't think it's that relevant

Re: Assisted dying now accounts for one in 20 Canada deaths

#135

Post by barbazoo » Thu, Dec 12, 2024, 7:35 PM UTC

mensetmanusman wrote: post #117

gnfargbl wrote: post #41

During the recent debate around the Assisted Dying Bill in the UK, I listened to a radio phone-in in which a palliative care doctor explained that it wasn't possible to relieve all suffering for all patients. They relayed an example of a person who had spent their last days vomiting fully-formed faeces. If we can prevent five, ten or perhaps twenty percent of people having gruesome deaths, then not doing so feels lik…

If we can prevent even one person from having a gruesome death, it’s worth the sacrifice of the other 99?

Who's being sacrificed and how in that case?

Re: Assisted dying now accounts for one in 20 Canada deaths

#136

Post by darth_avocado » Thu, Dec 12, 2024, 7:35 PM UTC

guyzero wrote: post #131

My Canadian parents are in their 80's so naturally a lot of their friends of the same age are dying. And two of them have been via MAID. In one case, which was surprising to me, a man who had survived cancer - he was not terminal but certainly wasn't getting any better - elected to die via MAID after his wife died. She passed, he called his doctor and less than a week later he was also dead. He got a chance to visit…

I wouldn’t call someone dealing with cancer and the loss of his wife sound of mind within one week of the loss.

Re: Assisted dying now accounts for one in 20 Canada deaths

#137

Post by bawolff » Thu, Dec 12, 2024, 7:35 PM UTC

stronglikedan wrote: post #130

dathos wrote: post #30

My grandma always told me when she couldn’t go on her walks anymore she didn’t consider life worth living. When she got dementia she was placed in a closed hospice, to “protect her”. Now she only walks when I visit, and I only see a shell of the woman she was. Anecdotal of course, but why do people think it’s an ethics question when society is individualistic as can be? There is no choice in being born, why don’t we…

> why don’t we get a choice in when we leave? Because dead folks don't pay taxes.

Terminally ill people generally aren't paying taxes either. You have to make money somehow to owe taxes.

Re: Assisted dying now accounts for one in 20 Canada deaths

#138

Post by RandomThoughts3 » Thu, Dec 12, 2024, 7:35 PM UTC

guyzero wrote: post #131

My Canadian parents are in their 80's so naturally a lot of their friends of the same age are dying. And two of them have been via MAID. In one case, which was surprising to me, a man who had survived cancer - he was not terminal but certainly wasn't getting any better - elected to die via MAID after his wife died. She passed, he called his doctor and less than a week later he was also dead. He got a chance to visit…

To be honest, my grand parents both died in their nineties and their last two years were really sad. It was not so much the physical decline but the mental one. At the end, while technically alive, so little of who they were as persons remained, they might as well have been dead.

I fully understand someone in their 80s knowing the end is near choosing to leave on their own term.

Re: Assisted dying now accounts for one in 20 Canada deaths

#139

Post by bluefirebrand » Thu, Dec 12, 2024, 7:36 PM UTC

gravitronic wrote: post #124

zer8k wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is an appeal to emotion. While people should have autonomy over their lives we should not be legalizing assisting them. This is a path that is well-trodden. Many dictatorships have "mercifully euthanized" various sectors of people. It always starts out as the disabled, cancer-stricken, or unviable. Then it becomes a simple way to get rid of the people deemed to be a burden. Suddenly being depressed is a good way…

slippery slope fallacy that giving people control of their own deaths will turn into the state euthanized anybody against their will

It's not a slippery slope if it's actually happening

But you're right, the state isn't euthanizing anyone against their will, and they don't need to

They can simply change incentives in such a way that people decide that it is what they want all on their own

Re: Assisted dying now accounts for one in 20 Canada deaths

#140

Post by graeme » Thu, Dec 12, 2024, 7:36 PM UTC

djoldman wrote: post #113

IMO, the key quote: > The vast majority – around 96% - had a death deemed "reasonably foreseeable", due to severe medical conditions such as cancer.

The standard for that is very loose. There's no requirement that the death be imminent. Iirc it basically means the condition could kill you, at some point.

This even applies if treatment would prevent death. It's whether the condition is capable of killing.