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Assisted dying now accounts for one in 20 Canada deaths

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Re: Assisted dying now accounts for one in 20 Canada deaths

#461

Post by dghlsakjg »

tivert wrote: post #399
mrguyorama wrote: post #358

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What right do you have to say this woman shouldn't be allowed to end her life though? She spoke to two different doctors and they both agreed to sign off on her death. Do you think the doctors are the ones pushing people to off themselves because they can't live a normal life? Forcing someone who wants to take the state sanctioned approach to suicide (as opposed to a 9mm sandwich) to talk to two medical professionals…

> What right do you have to say this woman shouldn't be allowed to end her life though? Read the article. She really wanted appropriate housing, which was the care she needed for her condition. She tried for years, and they wouldn't give it to her. So she chose assisted suicide instead. That contradicts the claim "there haven't been such cases."

Her approval was based on an untreatable medical condition, and the suffering that ensued. That medical condition was made worse by the housing she had, but was not the cause of it.

You can't apply for MAID due to social conditions on their own, it has to be medically justified first and foremost.

It is an interesting case, but at the end of the day it was a medical decision made by doctors, and a completely separate housing decision made by social services. Neither can talk about the case publicly. It is entirely possible that her chemical sensitivity was so non-specific that it wasn't feasible to provide her with any housing.

The flip side of this is you don't want people to be able to use MAID as some sort of weird blackmail. This woman's stance was "I want a better place to live, or my only other option is MAID".

Re: Assisted dying now accounts for one in 20 Canada deaths

#462

Post by hellojesus »

Frederation wrote: post #432
wryoak wrote: post #353

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That’s not what life is about in Christianity at all. Life is about choice in Christianity. Freedom. You can choose to live for yourself or for others, for the world. Dwelling on one’s suffering is a form of egoism that distances one from others and thus God. That’s why suicide is a sin in Christian theology, because it arises from individualism, which denies the Holy Spirit that comprises and composes us all. Asking…

[flagged]

I posted this quote in another comment, but felt the harshness of your tone may have been dervied from the topic of Christianity.

Christianity isn't the only religion/world view that has the perspective that your life has value to others, even if you yourself feel doomed.

From the Havamal, the wise words of Odin:

> The lame can ride a horse, the handless drive cattle, the deaf can fight and win. It’s better even to be blind, than fuel on a pyre; a corpse is of no use to anyone.

Re: Assisted dying now accounts for one in 20 Canada deaths

#463

Post by mb7733 »

h1fra wrote: post #416

Euthanasia without good cheap universal healthcare is just a way to get rid of people in a sick society. Canada might not be the worst but their healthcare only cover 60-70% of canadians' need. And it's slowly getting worse with the private sector eating the market.

> Canada might not be the worst but their healthcare only cover 60-70% of canadians' need. And it's slowly getting worse with the private sector eating the market.

What's that figure based on?

Re: Assisted dying now accounts for one in 20 Canada deaths

#464

Post by darth_avocado »

caseyohara wrote: post #186
darth_avocado wrote: post #153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would’ve expected at least a waiting period longer than a week after a traumatic event. Of course I don’t know all the circumstances around it.

Who decides on the duration of the waiting period? Why can’t people be in charge of their own lives? Especially people in their 80s, they have earned the right to agency. It reminds me of OB/GYN providers that deny childless women sterilization procedures – even when they are in their 30s – ostensibly on the risk that the woman might change their mind about having children. Some people know things for certain and the…

> But denying a full grown adult control over their life decisions is cruel and unduly authoritarian.

You’re assuming a clear state of mind and perfect circumstances. Suicidal thoughts are very common in depression. I would say giving people with depression access to euthanasia is more cruel than forcing them to seek help. Suicidal thoughts are also common in people who are struggling financially or people who have curable ailments but no access to healthcare. I would also say letting people kill themselves because they are poor is also much more cruel than denying them euthanasia.

Bodily autonomy is important but we still require you wear seatbelts when you drive.

Re: Assisted dying now accounts for one in 20 Canada deaths

#465

Post by toasterlovin »

pcl wrote: post #393
toasterlovin wrote: post #325

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Of course! I'm biased (as a Catholic), but I personally find the Church's moral stances to be fairly well thought out and systematic. But well thought out people starting from different axioms will often disagree with each other's conclusions!

It’s hard to ask this in a non-confrontational way, so I’ll just come out with it: How do you square that with the modern Catholic church’s systemic support of sexual abuse of minors? I mean this in the most inquisitive way possible. An organization’s what it does; the modern Catholic Church (leaders) have supported some horrible things. How do you separate out the good bits from the bad bits?

I appreciate it, but there's no need to be delicate: sexually abusing minors is evil. It's especially evil when a priest does it, since they hold positions of special influence and, of all people, should be best acquainted with how evil sunders the soul from God (priests are specifically trained to hear confessions, absolve people of sin, and advise them on how to avoid sin).

So that's the categorical statement.

More concretely, every adult in our archdiocese receives training on the risks of sexual abuse and I regularly hear the sex abuse scandals addressed during homilies. So it seems like the church, as an organization, is taking steps to address the issue.

But to step back and take a wider view, I think Catholicism acknowledges the brokenness of human beings, but reserves eternal judgement for God. So most serious Catholics are not going to walk away from the church because there is evil inside of priests. There is evil inside all of us. But we are called to do battle with evil. For most of us, that battle is within our own hearts, but certainly we must also root out systemic evil within the Church.

And finally, I see this line of thinking a lot from atheists wrt religion, but I think it is more widely applicable. Which is this: "people have done evil in the name of (or under the banner of) this religion and I will choose to only consider that one particular thing when measuring the moral worth of this religion." So in this case, it would be "the Catholic Church facilitated the mass sexual abuse of minors, therefore it is evil and should be done away with." But I think we have to consider the good that people and groups do when measuring their moral worth. In this case, I would point to all the charitable works done by the church and its faithful as worthy of your consideration.

To see how essential this expanded consideration is, I think it helps to slot in institutions which have less emotional valence than the Catholic Church (or Christianity or whatever). For instance, there have been many cases of school teachers sexually abusing students. Yet I don't think anybody would argue that the entire institution of school should be done away with or that adherents to schooling should walk away from it. After all, school is a crucial institution where many children thrive and where most teachers are grinding out good acts on a daily basis.

Re: Assisted dying now accounts for one in 20 Canada deaths

#466

Post by unethical_ban »

aristofun wrote: post #426

[flagged]

You're so off on this one.

My Trump voting evangelical mother who has quite conservative social opinions says that if she ever gets Alzheimer's as bad as her mother had, she wants us to shoot her in the head. And I don't think she's kidding in the spirit of wanting to die rather than waste away without knowing who she is for years while someone else changes her underwear.

Really, I have to wonder how you got it in your head that this is left-right.

Re: Assisted dying now accounts for one in 20 Canada deaths

#467

Post by giraffe_lady »

pwillia7 wrote: post #435
aristofun wrote: post #426

[flagged]

Why do you view it as disgusting? I have a great fear of sullying my good name and burdening my family before I get out of here

I have a family member who would be a straightforward candidate for this if they were in canada. I do not consider them a burden, nor are they "sullying their good name" by continuing to exist.

It does disgust me the way you and others here speak of the possibility of becoming like them. They still find life worth living and the world is better with them in it.

Re: Assisted dying now accounts for one in 20 Canada deaths

#468

Post by lolinder »

fdgjgbdfhgb wrote: post #447
gambiting wrote: post #343

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well that entire dogma is giving us monsters like Mother Theresa who thought that by letting people in her care suffer she made it more likely they will make it to heaven - and well, the Catholic Church has agreed with that interpretation and made her a Saint. This was touched upon in a game called Indika released this year......there's a story there how a guy ended the suffering of his young child who was in constan…

The "Mother Theresa withheld painkillers" thing is a myth [1] [1] https://www.reddit.com/r/badhistory/comments/gcxpr5/saint_mo...

It seems to be a fundamental truth of human existence that we're all extremely critical of others for how quick they are to believe nutty stories about people they disagree with, while sharing that fault. Tribalism is wired deeply into our DNA.

Re: Assisted dying now accounts for one in 20 Canada deaths

#469

Post by jen729w »

eastbound wrote: post #412
tokioyoyo wrote: post #363

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I live in the neighbourhood in Canada with a lot of elder people. I mentioned in one of my previous comments as well, and MAiD is probably one of the best things that happened in our country in the past decade. I have distant relatives who took the MAiD way out (one because of the age, the other one terminal illness). It's not very uncommon to hear once every quarter in the coffee shop in my neighbourhood people chat…

The problem I have with MAiD is I’m not sure the subject really decided it. Forged signatures do exist (a lot) and you’re only a socialist state away from trying to save on public health expenditures by incinerating unwilling patients after pretending their agreement. Without much trace than two witnesses who say “He said it”. Not like it already happened for handicapped people in Germany. I’m quite sure it already h…

> Easy fraud for doctors, with plenty of incentives to commit it, and the highest consequences for the victim.

I find this a bizarre way to assume that a person who has committed their entire lives to helping people would behave.

Re: Assisted dying now accounts for one in 20 Canada deaths

#470

Post by guyzero »

notatoad wrote: post #436
guyzero wrote: post #131

My Canadian parents are in their 80's so naturally a lot of their friends of the same age are dying. And two of them have been via MAID. In one case, which was surprising to me, a man who had survived cancer - he was not terminal but certainly wasn't getting any better - elected to die via MAID after his wife died. She passed, he called his doctor and less than a week later he was also dead. He got a chance to visit…

>She passed, he called his doctor and less than a week later he was also dead. this doesn't sound right? MAiD has a 90-day waiting period. He had to have started that process before his wife passed, and just picked the date after she passed.

I completely admit I have a limited, second-hand account of the situation. It's quite possible that the circumstances were such that this was planned in advance of the wife's passing.
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