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Sexism red/yellow cards at Defcon

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Re: Sexism red/yellow cards at Defcon

#81

Post by gavanwoolery »

mkramlich wrote: post #75
gavanwoolery wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wow, way to put a bunch of words in my mouth. Actually, what I am saying is that nature is not always nice or civilized. When you get a bunch of drunk males into a room, their super ego goes down and they will begin to behave (almost literally) like animals. Is it right or wrong? I don't know, but it is not sexism. Is it to be expected? Yes. How do I know it is to be expected? Because you can easily replicate the sit…

Upvoted you to counter-act the "college P.C." brigade.

Awesome. :)

Re: Sexism red/yellow cards at Defcon

#82

Post by michaelt »

codehotter wrote: post #61

Does this happen at non-IT parties where a lot of men gather to get drunk and to try and socialize? I admit I'm not much of a party person, but from what I have seen, the answer is yes. I do not believe this has got anything to do with IT nor with sexism. If you are an attractive woman (relative to the attending male population), you are going to attract attention. That is how men are wired. That is our culture. Men…

> The problem is probably not that women are not being respected or valued.

What the hell else do you call it when someone grabs your ass?

No-one grabs my ass at hacker conferences. You know why? Because I'm a man.

Re: Sexism red/yellow cards at Defcon

#83

Post by gavanwoolery »

anthonyb wrote: post #79
gavanwoolery wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wow, way to put a bunch of words in my mouth. Actually, what I am saying is that nature is not always nice or civilized. When you get a bunch of drunk males into a room, their super ego goes down and they will begin to behave (almost literally) like animals. Is it right or wrong? I don't know, but it is not sexism. Is it to be expected? Yes. How do I know it is to be expected? Because you can easily replicate the sit…

> it is the way nature made us What utter bullshit. I've been in plenty of bars, while drunk, and never felt the need to sexually harass anyone. You're just excusing sexist, asshole behaviour.

Not excusing it, explaining it. Do you see the difference?

If I tell you that serial killers kill people because it is the nature of sociopaths, I am NOT EXCUSING it, I am EXPLAINING it.

Re: Sexism red/yellow cards at Defcon

#84

Post by mkramlich »

adrianhoward wrote: post #52
gavanwoolery wrote: post #30

Maybe the title is link bait, but I don't think this is "sexism" by definition. Sexism: "Prejudice, stereotyping, or discrimination, typically against women, on the basis of sex." A bunch of males were hitting on the author, crassly or awkwardly, but they were not denying the author equal rights. If a female asked a male to show their privates, no one would call it "sexism"; it might be rude, uncalled for, or strange…

So... a behaviour like "Like the man who tried to get me to show him my tits so he could punch a hole in a card that, when filled, would net him a favor from one of the official security staff" - expecting that to actually work. Expecting women to think that was okay. That's not "stereotyping" or "Prejudice"? Expecting women to be okay with "Like the man who drunkenly tried to lick my shoulder tattoo. Like the man wh…

> Expecting women to be okay with "Like the man who drunkenly tried to lick my shoulder tattoo. Like the man who grabbed my hips while I was waiting for a drink at the EFF party" is not discrimination?

Simpler explanation: those guys were horny, drunk and/or being really really forward. But was the woman harmed? Heck no. Also I'm always amused by these stories of people who go to bars at night and then are shocked, SHOCKED that there are horny, forward, inebriated people there. Clearly, that should be a highly professional, sober, uptight and asexual environment. If someone wanted that kind of attention they would have gone to the library or a local church where that stuff belongs.

Re: Sexism red/yellow cards at Defcon

#85

Post by gordonguthrie »

kabuks wrote: post #26
mistermann wrote: post #18

Prediction: The sexism in IT problem will never end. Here's my hypothesis: 1. Women and men are different. We see this played out all around us, all the time, both sides happily make and laugh at jokes about it, and no one has a problem acknowledging this fact during discussion of other topics, but when certain subjects are being discussed, these very same people will assure you, with total sincerity, that there is n…

> Other professions require social skills in addition to the skills dedicated to the profession. IT does not. I would argue that more software projects fail because of lack of social skills than lack of hard skills. IT absolutely requires social skills.

I completely agree with this - and if you look at open source software that shines through. The projects with the better documentation, the thought through engagement process for new developers, the appropriate oversight, good delegation, etc, etc win over the 'better coding' ones.

Re: Sexism red/yellow cards at Defcon

#86

Post by derleth »

codehotter wrote: post #61

Does this happen at non-IT parties where a lot of men gather to get drunk and to try and socialize? I admit I'm not much of a party person, but from what I have seen, the answer is yes. I do not believe this has got anything to do with IT nor with sexism. If you are an attractive woman (relative to the attending male population), you are going to attract attention. That is how men are wired. That is our culture. Men…

> Men have to approach women, or they don't laid.

Hopefully, a reduction of sexism in our society will also change things like this.

A longish article on the general subject of how sexism hurts men, too:

http://www.alternet.org/reproductivejustice/156194/what_abou...

Re: Sexism red/yellow cards at Defcon

#87

Post by token_female »

codehotter wrote: post #61

Does this happen at non-IT parties where a lot of men gather to get drunk and to try and socialize? I admit I'm not much of a party person, but from what I have seen, the answer is yes. I do not believe this has got anything to do with IT nor with sexism. If you are an attractive woman (relative to the attending male population), you are going to attract attention. That is how men are wired. That is our culture. Men…

> I do not believe this has got anything to do with sexism

> That is our culture

Has it ever occurred to you that "our culture" might be a bit sexist?

> Men have to approach women, or they don't get laid

1. Approach doesn't have to mean sexual harassment

2. Women can like sex too. And women can approach men too. mind blowing, no?

> He probably needed to do something like that and get away with it to be happy?

What? What if the "something like that" were rape? What if it were murder? This whole paragraph reeks of you not thinking women's consent/feelings on who touches them matter.

> I grab my girlfriend's ass sometimes

Can you really not see how this is different from grabbing the ass of a random stranger at a professional-ish conference?

> Teach men how to express their sexuality in a way that works.

Damn, I was really hoping you were going to end that sentence with something like "that doesn't make women very uncomfortable" or "that doesn't make women feel undervalued or disrespected". I guess this far into your post I should have realized that your "solution" would also be entirely from the man's perspective of "getting" sex from women. And herein lies the problem that both you and the men at the conference share: you view women primarily as a means to sexual gratification. If you view men primarily as intellectual peers and women first as sex objects and only secondarily as intellectual beings, that is sexism.

Re: Sexism red/yellow cards at Defcon

#88

Post by mkramlich »

enqk wrote: post #68
bkrausz wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Long story short, if you step into a bar full of males who normally have few opportunities to make contact with women in a social context...yes, you are stepping into the lion's den. Males are sexual, but not necessarily "sexist" -- don't confuse the two. On the one hand, I believe you are technically correct (the best kind of correct). On the other, you seem to be implying that this kind of behavior is somehow ok…

I think the onus is on those damn men to get the fuck out and interact with women normally in the course of their lives, so as not to educate themselves about what it is to interact respectfully with other human beings.

> so as not to educate themselves about what it is to interact respectfully with other human beings.

Indeed. Especially in a bar or hotel at night in Las Vegas at a convention full of adults. What the heck were they thinking? Save that rowdy animalistic raw sexual behavior back for your corporate IT office cubicle in Podunk, Iowa. :)

Re: Sexism red/yellow cards at Defcon

#89

Post by derleth »

mkramlich wrote: post #75
gavanwoolery wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wow, way to put a bunch of words in my mouth. Actually, what I am saying is that nature is not always nice or civilized. When you get a bunch of drunk males into a room, their super ego goes down and they will begin to behave (almost literally) like animals. Is it right or wrong? I don't know, but it is not sexism. Is it to be expected? Yes. How do I know it is to be expected? Because you can easily replicate the sit…

Upvoted you to counter-act the "college P.C." brigade.

"PC" just means "Being polite to everyone"

Re: Sexism red/yellow cards at Defcon

#90

Post by masry »

token_female wrote: post #74
masry wrote: post #71

More women complaining about how the world isn't tailored to their every want and need, and they get all the sympathy in the world in spite of how plain whiny they're being. On the other end of the spectrum, I invite you to read this article, written by a woman, on how funny male rape is: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2129385/Exhausted-ma... I don't know much about Defcon, but I get the idea that the person…

I fucking hate how openly misogynistic HN is. I don't even want to bother sifting through this shit anymore. s/women/black people/g s/attending/going to elite, white-only colleges/g

Heh... sure. That's an apt analogy. The "frat party environment I was stepping into" is totally comparable to elite colleges.

/s

I feel like what was really going on is that there were n young girls at defcon that went to defcon knowing what defcon is like. They were completely fine with it, enjoyed being hit on and maybe got some one on one time the cute hacker across the bar.

Then this one entitled lady that thinks is all wrong, and makes cards about how the people that made the conference she wants to go to are creeps.. and guys here read it and think they've gone wrong somewhere.

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