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Sexism red/yellow cards at Defcon

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Re: Sexism red/yellow cards at Defcon

#21

Post by btilly »

[deleted] wrote: post #5
derrida wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The pillow-fight example sounds like straight-out sexism to me. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexism

[deleted]

In your opinion it "just sounds like" a guy interrupting an adult who is in a conversation so that he can try to hit on her. When it was not wanted.

In what way does this fail to be sexism? Please explain your point of view in sufficient detail that you can be disabused of your misconceptions of what is and is not going to be offensive to random women.

Big hint for you. Unwanted sexual attention creates what is known as a hostile environment. Don't do that.

Re: Sexism red/yellow cards at Defcon

#22

Post by syassami »

peteretep wrote: post #12
Aloisius wrote: post #10

What I don't understand is why this happens anymore. Surely no one can think it is acceptable in this day and age. I know we're talking about some of the least socially adept group of people, but come on. I don't see how you can even operate in society if you're literally trying to lick other people in public. Disclosure: I went to DEF CON 2 in 1994 when I was a shy 15 year old and there were no women around and appa…

Alcohol

Not really the problem here. See mistermann's comment.

Re: Sexism red/yellow cards at Defcon

#23

Post by jasonwatkinspdx »

mistermann wrote: post #18

Prediction: The sexism in IT problem will never end. Here's my hypothesis: 1. Women and men are different. We see this played out all around us, all the time, both sides happily make and laugh at jokes about it, and no one has a problem acknowledging this fact during discussion of other topics, but when certain subjects are being discussed, these very same people will assure you, with total sincerity, that there is n…

I believe you are wrong.

Your perspective is over simplified. People are unique individuals, and as a group we fit distributions. Certainly there are trends within genders, but we can find examples of any gender at any point along any metric of measurement you like.

The point is to stop generalizing and start relating to the real person standing in front of you, no matter what organs or identity they're equipped with.

You also have a trivialized view of success in our industry. Social skills matter. Software development is a team process.

The reason we're so AAAAAAAAAMAZED this still happens is that once you've some awareness of this, it's baffling that everyone else keeps sticking to these old meaningless generalizations. On the whole we're a smart lot. We should be acting smarter than this.

Re: Sexism red/yellow cards at Defcon

#26

Post by kabuks »

mistermann wrote: post #18

Prediction: The sexism in IT problem will never end. Here's my hypothesis: 1. Women and men are different. We see this played out all around us, all the time, both sides happily make and laugh at jokes about it, and no one has a problem acknowledging this fact during discussion of other topics, but when certain subjects are being discussed, these very same people will assure you, with total sincerity, that there is n…

> Other professions require social skills in addition to the skills dedicated to the profession. IT does not.

I would argue that more software projects fail because of lack of social skills than lack of hard skills. IT absolutely requires social skills.

Re: Sexism red/yellow cards at Defcon

#27

Post by ryanwaggoner »

btilly wrote: post #21
[deleted] wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[deleted]

In your opinion it "just sounds like" a guy interrupting an adult who is in a conversation so that he can try to hit on her. When it was not wanted. In what way does this fail to be sexism? Please explain your point of view in sufficient detail that you can be disabused of your misconceptions of what is and is not going to be offensive to random women. Big hint for you. Unwanted sexual attention creates what is known…

In your opinion it "just sounds like" a guy interrupting an adult who is in a conversation so that he can try to hit on her. When it was not wanted.

This is so ridiculous. "Hitting on" someone is an attempt to find out if the attention is wanted. It can obviously be done in very poor taste, to the point of being abhorrent, but it can also be done respectfully. To say that he was wrong to hit on her because it was unwanted attention is completely circular logic.

Serious question: in your version of the ideal world, how does anyone ever begin a romantic relationship?

Re: Sexism red/yellow cards at Defcon

#28

Post by btilly »

Aloisius wrote: post #10

What I don't understand is why this happens anymore. Surely no one can think it is acceptable in this day and age. I know we're talking about some of the least socially adept group of people, but come on. I don't see how you can even operate in society if you're literally trying to lick other people in public. Disclosure: I went to DEF CON 2 in 1994 when I was a shy 15 year old and there were no women around and appa…

Here is my theory.

A bunch of the people present think that they can hack systems. And have read articles about pickup artists and have come to the theory that what women really want is a guy who has the balls to be up front about what he wants. So being over the top seems to them to be a way to hack human relationships.

Maybe there are some women who respond well to that. I don't know. I've never had a reason to try to act like that. But even if a hypothetical minority of women will respond well, the vast majority simply won't. And you'll leave a trail of offended people behind you.

So overconfidence combined with stupidly wrong theories about what women will respond to, and a complete lack of respect for feelings hurt lead to over the top jerks. There are not a lot of these. They are probably a very small minority. But even a small portion have a disproportionate impact on the experience that women will have.

Re: Sexism red/yellow cards at Defcon

#29

Post by fuzzix »

mistermann wrote: post #18

Prediction: The sexism in IT problem will never end. Here's my hypothesis: 1. Women and men are different. We see this played out all around us, all the time, both sides happily make and laugh at jokes about it, and no one has a problem acknowledging this fact during discussion of other topics, but when certain subjects are being discussed, these very same people will assure you, with total sincerity, that there is n…

"Other professions require social skills in addition to the skills dedicated to the profession. IT does not."

What pap, understanding requirements for your software or solving support problems requires empathy and courtesy for those you serve.

If you don't have it, you'll miss the target.

Re: Sexism red/yellow cards at Defcon

#30

Post by gavanwoolery »

Maybe the title is link bait, but I don't think this is "sexism" by definition. Sexism:

"Prejudice, stereotyping, or discrimination, typically against women, on the basis of sex."

A bunch of males were hitting on the author, crassly or awkwardly, but they were not denying the author equal rights. If a female asked a male to show their privates, no one would call it "sexism"; it might be rude, uncalled for, or strange, but not sexism. At a place like DefCon, most of the males are probably not regular bar-hoppers -- they mostly introverted, and probably fail miserably when trying to approach the opposite sex. (Not to knock on anybody, I am introverted/awkward myself.)

Long story short, if you step into a bar full of males who normally have few opportunities to make contact with women in a social context...yes, you are stepping into the lion's den. Males are sexual, but not necessarily "sexist" -- don't confuse the two.

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