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Sexism red/yellow cards at Defcon

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Re: Sexism red/yellow cards at Defcon

#71

Post by masry »

More women complaining about how the world isn't tailored to their every want and need, and they get all the sympathy in the world in spite of how plain whiny they're being. On the other end of the spectrum, I invite you to read this article, written by a woman, on how funny male rape is:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2129385/Exhausted-ma...

I don't know much about Defcon, but I get the idea that the person that wrote that post isn't organizing it, nor is a prominent figure in the scene. I also gather that the general atmosphere at that is.. fun-ish.

If you don't like that kind of fun, have you considered, um, not attending? Or did you just go ahead and demand that everyone at defcon behaved like you want them too, because, obviously, you're at the centre of the universe and everyone at defcon is just there to do what you please?

If you go to a gay bar you'll get your ass grabbed, if you go to the sketchy part of town at 2 am you'll get mugged, and if you go to defcon with a shoulder tattoo showing and you're flirting with some guy, you might get the tattoo licked. If you're not into these things, don't go to these places.

EDIT: looks like my link's story has been edited to remove the snarky comments first posted by @NatalieEvans85. Good for them

Re: Sexism red/yellow cards at Defcon

#72

Post by gavanwoolery »

jessedhillon wrote: post #43
gavanwoolery wrote: post #30

Maybe the title is link bait, but I don't think this is "sexism" by definition. Sexism: "Prejudice, stereotyping, or discrimination, typically against women, on the basis of sex." A bunch of males were hitting on the author, crassly or awkwardly, but they were not denying the author equal rights. If a female asked a male to show their privates, no one would call it "sexism"; it might be rude, uncalled for, or strange…

Prejudice , as in, a default judgment/assessment weighing against an individual? I submit that the idea that it's permitted to treat this person less respectfully because they are a woman is such a judgment, and it is on the basis of sex. Stereotyping , as in a belief... about specific types of individuals or certain ways of doing things, but that belief may or may not accurately reflect reality . Again, I submit tha…

Wow, way to put a bunch of words in my mouth.

Actually, what I am saying is that nature is not always nice or civilized. When you get a bunch of drunk males into a room, their super ego goes down and they will begin to behave (almost literally) like animals. Is it right or wrong? I don't know, but it is not sexism. Is it to be expected? Yes. How do I know it is to be expected? Because you can easily replicate the situation. Go to Cancun if you want to see males in their most animal-state. Is it condonable? I do not know, but it is the way nature made us. Nature designed us to want reproduce - without our rules, morals, and what-have-you, we would be doing much worse things than asking to see private parts. Unfortunately, nature also gave us language, which means a lot of times males will utter really stupid things because their sex-drive takes over and their brain reaches a state of near-retardation (hence the popular phrase "show us your tits").

In shorter words - if you are a female in a bar that is overwhelmingly packed with males -- yes, you should very much expect to get harassed. Yes, it is not "right", but its the way nature made us so there is not a lot of sense in complaining about it. You could just as well complain about people being obese, because nature designed us to enjoy food. Am I saying women deserve to be harassed when they dress sexually? No, of course not. But what I am saying is that some males have less super ego than others, and it varies with the situation, so there are certain situations (like this one) in which a female could certainly expect to be harassed.

Re: Sexism red/yellow cards at Defcon

#73

Post by drostie »

jessedhillon wrote: post #43
gavanwoolery wrote: post #30

Maybe the title is link bait, but I don't think this is "sexism" by definition. Sexism: "Prejudice, stereotyping, or discrimination, typically against women, on the basis of sex." A bunch of males were hitting on the author, crassly or awkwardly, but they were not denying the author equal rights. If a female asked a male to show their privates, no one would call it "sexism"; it might be rude, uncalled for, or strange…

Prejudice , as in, a default judgment/assessment weighing against an individual? I submit that the idea that it's permitted to treat this person less respectfully because they are a woman is such a judgment, and it is on the basis of sex. Stereotyping , as in a belief... about specific types of individuals or certain ways of doing things, but that belief may or may not accurately reflect reality . Again, I submit tha…

This is the Correct Response. I would only add one thing:

Even if you don't agree that this sort of prejudice and stereotyping amounts to discrimination, the discussion still makes sense. Why? Because most discrimination -- whether racist or sexist -- really happens at the level of social institutions rather than at an individual level. (Like, if you think that you are not a racist because you personally don't see anything wrong with black people, then you probably don't understand racism as it exists today.) The original post is actually trying to cut at the heart of the problem of sexism, which exists prior to (and matures into) the phenonena that gavanwoolery considers "properly" sexist. It's a seed for the problem which matures into institutional sexism.

Re: Sexism red/yellow cards at Defcon

#74

Post by token_female »

masry wrote: post #71

More women complaining about how the world isn't tailored to their every want and need, and they get all the sympathy in the world in spite of how plain whiny they're being. On the other end of the spectrum, I invite you to read this article, written by a woman, on how funny male rape is: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2129385/Exhausted-ma... I don't know much about Defcon, but I get the idea that the person…

I fucking hate how openly misogynistic HN is. I don't even want to bother sifting through this shit anymore.

s/women/black people/g

s/attending/going to elite, white-only colleges/g

Re: Sexism red/yellow cards at Defcon

#75

Post by mkramlich »

gavanwoolery wrote: post #72
jessedhillon wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Prejudice , as in, a default judgment/assessment weighing against an individual? I submit that the idea that it's permitted to treat this person less respectfully because they are a woman is such a judgment, and it is on the basis of sex. Stereotyping , as in a belief... about specific types of individuals or certain ways of doing things, but that belief may or may not accurately reflect reality . Again, I submit tha…

Wow, way to put a bunch of words in my mouth. Actually, what I am saying is that nature is not always nice or civilized. When you get a bunch of drunk males into a room, their super ego goes down and they will begin to behave (almost literally) like animals. Is it right or wrong? I don't know, but it is not sexism. Is it to be expected? Yes. How do I know it is to be expected? Because you can easily replicate the sit…

Upvoted you to counter-act the "college P.C." brigade.

Re: Sexism red/yellow cards at Defcon

#77

Post by mkramlich »

mootothemax wrote: post #64
gavanwoolery wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree - I do not think this type of behavior should be condoned or justified, but I do believe it should be expected. I have seen the same behavior in many bars/clubs. Deep down, every man want two things: food and sex (akin to Freud's "id"). When you have enough drinks in you, your control/moral mechanisms get toned down (your ego and super ego). So, yes, in any bar full of drunk males, any female should expect to…

Deep down, every man want two things: food and sex (akin to Freud's "id"). When you have enough drinks in you, your control/moral mechanisms get toned down (your ego and super ego) This is terrible and a disgusting position to take. I am quite capable of going to a bar, drinking like a teenager, and managing to go home, all without sexually harassing or assaulting anyone. You're attempting to justify awful behaviour…

> If you, or any of your friends, are incapable of appearing in public without [flirting, hitting on and/or touching] another person, the problem very much does not lie with the person on the receiving end. [... Wait what?]

Adjusted that for you to illustrate a different perspective.

Re: Sexism red/yellow cards at Defcon

#78

Post by swa14 »

lflux wrote: post #67
swa14 wrote: post #59

It's not that I disagree with the general sentiment, but there's an undertone of self-righteousness there. " I was already thinking about what clothes I would avoid taking to Las Vegas for Defcon. Short skirts, low cut tops, tight dresses, and anything that might be overtly attention-grabbing have been bumped to second priority on that packing list. Why?" Maybe because it's a good idea to dress as part of the busines…

Defcon and Blackhat are two different animals. Blackhat is the "business" conference, whereas Defcon is where mohawks and whacky t-shirts are the norm. Dressing as "business" at Defcon will get you accused of being a Fed.

I'm sorry. I meant "the business" as in "the business you're representing", not the "business" as in suits. So in this case dressing in wacky t-shirts and mohawks.

Actually, as you put it, wearing a nice business suit might be a good solution for women at defcon. It would buck the trend of dressing whacky forced-casual, making you stand out and garner attention, and, noone is going to grab the ass of a suspected federal agent.

Re: Sexism red/yellow cards at Defcon

#79

Post by anthonyb »

gavanwoolery wrote: post #72
jessedhillon wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Prejudice , as in, a default judgment/assessment weighing against an individual? I submit that the idea that it's permitted to treat this person less respectfully because they are a woman is such a judgment, and it is on the basis of sex. Stereotyping , as in a belief... about specific types of individuals or certain ways of doing things, but that belief may or may not accurately reflect reality . Again, I submit tha…

Wow, way to put a bunch of words in my mouth. Actually, what I am saying is that nature is not always nice or civilized. When you get a bunch of drunk males into a room, their super ego goes down and they will begin to behave (almost literally) like animals. Is it right or wrong? I don't know, but it is not sexism. Is it to be expected? Yes. How do I know it is to be expected? Because you can easily replicate the sit…

> it is the way nature made us

What utter bullshit. I've been in plenty of bars, while drunk, and never felt the need to sexually harass anyone.

You're just excusing sexist, asshole behaviour.

Re: Sexism red/yellow cards at Defcon

#80

Post by gavanwoolery »

drostie wrote: post #73
jessedhillon wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Prejudice , as in, a default judgment/assessment weighing against an individual? I submit that the idea that it's permitted to treat this person less respectfully because they are a woman is such a judgment, and it is on the basis of sex. Stereotyping , as in a belief... about specific types of individuals or certain ways of doing things, but that belief may or may not accurately reflect reality . Again, I submit tha…

This is the Correct Response. I would only add one thing: Even if you don't agree that this sort of prejudice and stereotyping amounts to discrimination, the discussion still makes sense . Why? Because most discrimination -- whether racist or sexist -- really happens at the level of social institutions rather than at an individual level. (Like, if you think that you are not a racist because you personally don't see a…

The foremost cause of sexism is the fact that many males (consciously or subconsciously) perceive women as mentally and physically weaker (and indeed the average woman is physically weaker than the average male, that's just the way nature played the cards for the human species).

Sex-drive is not really as much of a problem with regards to sexism. Sex-drive causes sexual harassment, which is not sexism. If a male were to sexually harass a female, it would not be sexism because he is not giving males special preference over females). If a male were to make a female employee engage is sexual activity for a raise, it would be sexual exploitation, not sexism.

My main gripe here is basically that "sexism" has become an umbrella term to describe many things it does not apply to, and thus, a misnomer.

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