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Rivian is opening its charging network to other EVs

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Re: Rivian is opening its charging network to other EVs

#111

Post by ggreer »

cyberax wrote: post #99
ggreer wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You don't even need the contactless credit card reader. ISO 15118 is the standard for plug and charge.[1] Tesla implements it, as do most other EV manufacturers. The problem is that charging networks and manufacturers haven't settled on a way to exchange and update certificates.[2] 1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISO_15118 2. https://www.theverge.com/2024/12/4/24312002/ev-plug-and-char...

Tesla doesn't use the ISO standard for plug&charge, they have their own custom implementation.

Before the ISO standard existed, Tesla had their own implementation of plug and charge. They've since added support for ISO 15118, allowing non-Teslas to charge at supercharging stations without using the Tesla app.[1]

The issue is that the ISO standard relies on TLS certificates, but manufacturers and charging networks have not yet agreed upon a standard set of CAs. Tesla wants to update the standard to remove the TLS requirement, which would improve reliability and time to start charging. But signed metering receipts are broken in the existing standard, so that needs to be fixed before the TLS requirement can be removed.

1. See page 3 of https://efiling.energy.ca.gov/GetDocument.aspx?tn=256283

Re: Rivian is opening its charging network to other EVs

#112

Post by jonny_eh »

PaulWaldman wrote: post #107
m463 wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've come to notice that there is no incentive for 3rd party ev-chargers to be dependable. Telsa and rivian have a vested interest in keeping the chargers working. Their sales depend on the chargers working. Even a little bad press is a multiplier against sales. They also have significant engineering effort throughout the charging ecosystem, from the batteries, on-board infrastructure, standards, mapping, strategic c…

> I've come to notice that there is no incentive for 3rd party ev-chargers to be dependable. I don't know, how often would you stop at a gas station if their pumps weren't reliable? Many 3rd party chargers are selling electricity at a mark-up.

Unfortunately, the lost income is marginal. The risk for Tesla/Rivian, or even a gas station, is more existential.

Re: Rivian is opening its charging network to other EVs

#113

Post by beAbU »

cogman10 wrote: post #98
onlyrealcuzzo wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When it started taking 30 minutes to "fill up" your car. High speed chargers can cost >$200k installed. A gas pump costs about $25k installed. If the average person spends 4 minutes at a pump, that comes out to: The time value of a slot at a super charger can be >$5 for each charge. The time value of a slot at a gas pump is ~$0.07 per fill up. The economics of a charging business are awful. High CapEx, few cars, not…

> The economics of a charging business are awful. Ish. I mean one thing the charging business has going for it is that after the initial investment the ongoing investment is basically 0. You don't have weekly fuel shipments or any real ongoing maintenance costs. You also don't see immigrants all over charging stations because they are mostly unmanned. Usually placed in parking lots of retail stores.

> You also don't see immigrants all over charging stations because they are mostly unmanned. Usually placed in parking lots of retail stores

tf is this supposed to mean

Re: Rivian is opening its charging network to other EVs

#114

Post by vel0city »

cyberax wrote: post #99
ggreer wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You don't even need the contactless credit card reader. ISO 15118 is the standard for plug and charge.[1] Tesla implements it, as do most other EV manufacturers. The problem is that charging networks and manufacturers haven't settled on a way to exchange and update certificates.[2] 1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISO_15118 2. https://www.theverge.com/2024/12/4/24312002/ev-plug-and-char...

Tesla doesn't use the ISO standard for plug&charge, they have their own custom implementation.

They do on newer chargers.

Re: Rivian is opening its charging network to other EVs

#115

Post by ericcumbee »

menthe wrote: post #54
asynchronous wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They must not have one, because they’re ALWAYS taking up two stalls at the Tesla supercharger ones.

Take this to daddy Elon - this has absolutely nothing to do with Rivian.

from my understanding this is addressed with the new v4 supercharger stations that are coming online now. its not just a rivian problem its the same with Ford EVs as well.

Re: Rivian is opening its charging network to other EVs

#116

Post by cogman10 »

beAbU wrote: post #113
cogman10 wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The economics of a charging business are awful. Ish. I mean one thing the charging business has going for it is that after the initial investment the ongoing investment is basically 0. You don't have weekly fuel shipments or any real ongoing maintenance costs. You also don't see immigrants all over charging stations because they are mostly unmanned. Usually placed in parking lots of retail stores.

> You also don't see immigrants all over charging stations because they are mostly unmanned. Usually placed in parking lots of retail stores tf is this supposed to mean

Mostly just responding to the OP

> There's a reason you don't see immigrants from all over the world coming to the US to open charging stations the way you saw them opening gas stations.

My guess is what they meant by this is the very visible minimarts on gas stations often manned by (presumed) immigrants.

Re: Rivian is opening its charging network to other EVs

#117

Post by vondur »

ggreer wrote: post #62
MrHamburger wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Charging via application brings unnecessary friction and severely degrades UX. Another UX offenders are QR codes on charging stalls and locking charging cables unless you will find that correct QR code so you can unlock your charging cable. Not that one, that will unlock charging cable in the stall next to you. For FFS why do I need to search for QR codes at a first place... I can imagine a simple solution - take a c…

You don't even need the contactless credit card reader. ISO 15118 is the standard for plug and charge.[1] Tesla implements it, as do most other EV manufacturers. The problem is that charging networks and manufacturers haven't settled on a way to exchange and update certificates.[2] 1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISO_15118 2. https://www.theverge.com/2024/12/4/24312002/ev-plug-and-char...

I agree. ChargePoint has the contactless payment setup, but you need to have the Application setup with your account on it. After that it works through the Apple Wallet app.

Re: Rivian is opening its charging network to other EVs

#118

Post by cmrdporcupine »

m463 wrote: post #104
NotSammyHagar wrote: post #32

Their strategy was to build them where there weren't other dcfc chargers, opening up new areas especially around outdoors places. Their chargers are much better maintained in general than the infamous Electrify America (they really struggle to fix EA chargers when they have problems, and they have problems) - there's a long story behind this. Rivian started before the plan to use superchargers was even envisioned, so…

I've come to notice that there is no incentive for 3rd party ev-chargers to be dependable. Telsa and rivian have a vested interest in keeping the chargers working. Their sales depend on the chargers working. Even a little bad press is a multiplier against sales. They also have significant engineering effort throughout the charging ecosystem, from the batteries, on-board infrastructure, standards, mapping, strategic c…

I think the answer is that there needs to be, like gas stations, substantial retail/dining side-quest stuff set up to get revenue. If you don't have working chargers, people won't buy your hamburgers and pop. Or whatever.

Likely though this market is going to need some regulation/standardization.

In the end though, the demand is sporadic. Supercharger use is only for a minority of use cases (road trips) for a small segment of EV users. I've had my Polestar2 for 3 months and have yet to use one. It will never carry the same revenue possibilities as gas stations, esp as battery sizes go up.

Re: Rivian is opening its charging network to other EVs

#119

Post by bobthepanda »

jonny_eh wrote: post #112
PaulWaldman wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I've come to notice that there is no incentive for 3rd party ev-chargers to be dependable. I don't know, how often would you stop at a gas station if their pumps weren't reliable? Many 3rd party chargers are selling electricity at a mark-up.

Unfortunately, the lost income is marginal. The risk for Tesla/Rivian, or even a gas station, is more existential.

Yeah, the forging of EA from the Dieselgate money probably has a lot to do with why they don’t feel the heat on unreliable chargers.

I suppose it would be different if chargers were run by electric utilities or were there to goose the sales of convenience stores.

Re: Rivian is opening its charging network to other EVs

#120

Post by ggreer »

no_wizard wrote: post #96
ggreer wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Companies tend not to publish their costs, but we can find some info about the economics of charging stations. A grant program in Texas subsidized up to 70% of the cost of charging stations. Tesla bid $500k for a fast charging station with 17 plugs, and around $380k for a station with 9 plugs.[1] That's $29k per plug for the 17 charger station. Assuming they asked for the maximum subsidy, that means Tesla's costs are…

EV manufacturers (re: most car manufactures) are going to do all they can to get the government to subsidize this as much as possible. I noticed an explosion of EV charging stations where I live after the state government put incentives in to subsidize their build out. Other states have done it already and are doing it now. They're going to see the pattern of "I can get the government to subsidize this" and will hold…

It's important to distinguish Tesla from other companies. The others haven't figured out how to make chargers cheaply yet, so they're forced to ask for subsidies. That's why Tesla's bids on that Texas contract were so much lower than the competition.

Tesla mass produces their charging stations in factories. Entire stations are assembled from modular units, mounted on a concrete slab, and shipped to the installation site on a flatbed.[1] These optimizations have gotten installation times down to 4 days.[2] Sources inside of Tesla have claimed their charging network is profitable, which is impressive considering that until recently, their network got no subsidies because it only supported charging Teslas.

1. https://x.com/Tesla/status/1636085524694695939

2. https://x.com/TeslaCharging/status/1777395990766432596

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