Rivian is opening its charging network to other EVs • Hacker News Board

Re: Rivian is opening its charging network to other EVs

#31

Post by toast0 » Fri, Dec 06, 2024, 5:10 PM UTC

isaacdl wrote: post #7

nimbius wrote: post #3

I applaud the effort to expand charging across the nation as this will inevitably increase the comfort level of the average joe on the fence with range anxiety. The elephant in the room that nobody is talking about is the connector. There are SEVEN different competing charging connector types in North America. if i dont have an adapter, im either screwed into spending 3 hours at a charging station or im calling a tow…

What are the 7? In my experience, the two that really matter are J1772/CCS1 and NACS (Tesla). There's a scattering of CHADeMO, but I haven't yet seen a Level 3 DC charger that has CHADeMO only - the cabinet also has a CCS1 plug. Most (all?) manufacturers will be moving to NACS in the next few years. Luckily, J1772/CCS1 and NACS are protocol-level compatible, so adaptors are relatively cheap and easy to make. The rema…

PHEVs usually only have J1772. Not that we need to charge at a station, but I'm happy to take a free charge when available.

Re: Rivian is opening its charging network to other EVs

#32

Post by NotSammyHagar » Fri, Dec 06, 2024, 5:14 PM UTC

Their strategy was to build them where there weren't other dcfc chargers, opening up new areas especially around outdoors places. Their chargers are much better maintained in general than the infamous Electrify America (they really struggle to fix EA chargers when they have problems, and they have problems) - there's a long story behind this.

Rivian started before the plan to use superchargers was even envisioned, so today some of those holes that Rivian was filling aren't so important because tesla superchargers are nearby.

Rivian has done a great job keeping their chargers working, have the software be reliable, just running a good service. Many and maybe most DCFC charger networks (DCFC meaning high power CCS chargers not including Tesla superchargers) really have struggled to match the uptime and reliability tesla SC. Tesla's magic ability it: (1) fix them when they break, quickly. (2) don't just build 4 chargers in a spot, it's almost the same cost to build 8 or 10. (3) string them together along main travel routes to make it possible to travel.

The entire rest of the the charging industry basically fails at those 3 things. Most of them can't manage to fix a broken charger, sometimes in months. One major reason is they often don't have standardized hardware so there might not be a spare hardware to fix something there.

Re: Rivian is opening its charging network to other EVs

#33

Post by Yeul » Fri, Dec 06, 2024, 5:16 PM UTC

izacus wrote: post #18

How did we get from a situation where you could just pay with cash/card for fuel to having monopolized single-brand car fueling stations?

No laws on campaign financing. You let money rule democracy. And now the CEO of a car company is part of the US government.

Re: Rivian is opening its charging network to other EVs

#34

Post by NotSammyHagar » Fri, Dec 06, 2024, 5:16 PM UTC

onlyrealcuzzo wrote: post #19

izacus wrote: post #18

How did we get from a situation where you could just pay with cash/card for fuel to having monopolized single-brand car fueling stations?

When it started taking 30 minutes to "fill up" your car. High speed chargers can cost >$200k installed. A gas pump costs about $25k installed. If the average person spends 4 minutes at a pump, that comes out to: The time value of a slot at a super charger can be >$5 for each charge. The time value of a slot at a gas pump is ~$0.07 per fill up. The economics of a charging business are awful. High CapEx, few cars, not…

Add on to that that many gas stations make more money from going in and buying something in the store. If you stay at an EV charging station for longer, you are going to be more likely to buy something. This is a reason there are Tesla superchargers now at places like sonic in the west. Also see Buckees.

Re: Rivian is opening its charging network to other EVs

#35

Post by NotSammyHagar » Fri, Dec 06, 2024, 5:17 PM UTC

zdragnar wrote: post #27

VectorLock wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>High speed chargers can cost >$200k installed. >A gas pump costs about $25k installed. These numbers seem skewed to me. I think you're quoting prices for gas pumps with just the pump, not any storage infrastructure like underground tanks, stores, employees. Then you're quoting the cost high speed chargers without any kind of electrical infrastructure to support them, which would be expensive, but more analogous to i…

Storage tanks are (relatively) cheap. Stores and employees are needed because margins on gasoline are extremely thin, and it's an easy way to make money if you're already putting in the pumps. The infrastructure for high speed chargers is a lot of metal, which unlike a store, does not contribute extra money in addition to the pump.

Since fast DC charging takes more time, there's a lot more time for a person to buy something from the store.

Re: Rivian is opening its charging network to other EVs

#36

Post by [deleted] » Fri, Dec 06, 2024, 5:17 PM UTC

onlyrealcuzzo wrote: post #19

izacus wrote: post #18

How did we get from a situation where you could just pay with cash/card for fuel to having monopolized single-brand car fueling stations?

When it started taking 30 minutes to "fill up" your car. High speed chargers can cost >$200k installed. A gas pump costs about $25k installed. If the average person spends 4 minutes at a pump, that comes out to: The time value of a slot at a super charger can be >$5 for each charge. The time value of a slot at a gas pump is ~$0.07 per fill up. The economics of a charging business are awful. High CapEx, few cars, not…

[deleted]

Re: Rivian is opening its charging network to other EVs

#37

Post by x13 » Fri, Dec 06, 2024, 5:18 PM UTC

asynchronous wrote: post #23

Suppafly wrote: post #21

I had no idea that Rivian had a charging network and they build them like an hour from where I live so I see them all over the place. I just assumed they used the Tesla ones or the generic ones you see all over.

They do (mis)use the Tesla ones. I don’t expect this announcement means literally anything to any EV brand.

3,500 new locations is helpful for all EV owners (and brands)

Re: Rivian is opening its charging network to other EVs

#38

Post by NotSammyHagar » Fri, Dec 06, 2024, 5:22 PM UTC

wlesieutre wrote: post #11

NotSammyHagar wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's only 3 plug formats that matter. J1772 for AC charging, the Tesla plug (called NACS), and CCS, the other main standard. It may look messy but it's trivial in practice, once you can use superchargers. Once you have access to superchargers you can just drive. I've driven across the country 3 times in a Tesla, now I have a different EV with a CCS plug and access to superchargers with an adapter, I'm free to go w…

It's not only the plug shape though, it's also the language the plug speaks. Newer Tesla chargers (I think supercharger v3 and up) will be able to talk CCS over the NACS connector for wide compatibility, but the older ones will look the same and only charge a Tesla because they don't communicate with CCS.

That "old superchargers don't work with CCS" is true yet it's not really a problem. First, the software sites that show you chargers know about the different versions. Tesla and even Rivian show you only the superchargers you can use.

The old superchargers (called v2) used the original protocol (CANbus) which is different than CCS's protocol. Newer Tesla superchargers speak the original proto and the ccs wire protocol. All new chargers uses the new protocol. Tesla is slowly replacing their chargers as they age out. At the same time this transition helps reserve a few chargers for teslas (the older v2 ones).

What this means is you use your incar app or a phone app to find chargers, and you only see the ones that you can use. This works for Rivian, Tesla, but also GM and Ford. It's a messy issue for sure, but it's turns out not to be an issue.

Re: Rivian is opening its charging network to other EVs

#39

Post by iknowstuff » Fri, Dec 06, 2024, 5:23 PM UTC

NotSammyHagar wrote: post #32

Their strategy was to build them where there weren't other dcfc chargers, opening up new areas especially around outdoors places. Their chargers are much better maintained in general than the infamous Electrify America (they really struggle to fix EA chargers when they have problems, and they have problems) - there's a long story behind this. Rivian started before the plan to use superchargers was even envisioned, so…

Tesla’s magic is excellent, quick, and cheap manufacturing coupled with their own dedicated software for them. And constant iteration.

EA is a pathetic failure because its a hodgepodge of outsourced components (so very difficult to iterate) running on some shitty outsourced windows based software.

Re: Rivian is opening its charging network to other EVs

#40

Post by NotSammyHagar » Fri, Dec 06, 2024, 5:25 PM UTC

bdcravens wrote: post #14

mikestew wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

if i dont have an adapter, im either screwed into spending 3 hours at a charging station or im calling a tow truck Found the commenter that’s never actually owned an EV. 13 years of EV ownership and numerous road trips, and your hypotheticals have never happened to me. Yes, you’re technically correct, said by some to be the worst kind of correct. Because in day-to-day reality, there are basically two kinds of connect…

They're technically correct in the same sense that there are more than 2 mobile operating systems.

Or maybe it's kind of like there were more than 4 different plugs for mobile phones to charger (lightning for apple, several variants of USB, some weirdo proprietary, then usb-c). A lot of people like me have 3 there way splitters (micro-usb, lightning, usb-c), so I can charge any phone.

The world is switching to usb-c finally