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Senators say TSA's facial recognition program is out of control

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Re: Senators say TSA's facial recognition program is out of control

#211

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>it’s the oldest country in the world if you measure by (codified) constitution I think a better way of phrasing it might be "a continuous system of government". Germany certainly existed before the late 1940s, but the system of government was obviously very, very different.

> Defining what is a country, let alone a continuous empire is very messy business with a lot of national narrative tied in Definitely gets fuzzy with definitions when we have things like Prussia, German unification, the German Empire, and all that. Especially, again, with the national narrative. It is messy business and I think we often pretned it is a lot cleaner than it actually is.

It's not that messy, it's just a disagreement about what a "country" is. You're thinking with the European mindset of "nation", where a country is defined by its borders, history, etc. The OP is thinking with the American mindset where the country is defined by its founding documents and legal principles. They're entirely different.

In the latter mindset, Prussia, the German Empire, etc., really have nothing to do with modern Germany, because Germany is not a kingdom or empire, it's a country that was founded in 1945/6 by Allied occupiers. The only messy thing about it is the reunification in the early 1990s, because two formerly separate countries (DDR and BRD), with extremely different systems of government, were stuck together, but under the same system of government as the western side, which really makes it an annexation.

Re: Senators say TSA's facial recognition program is out of control

#212

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The collection of biometric data is already normalized. It has been normalized since the 1920s, when the FBI's central fingerprint repository was created. And the end goal isn't the system that currently exists. It is a system in which the movement of passengers isn't halted. Someone watched 1990's Total Recall and said "we need a security checkpoint like that". Also, the "Overton window" is a libertarian bullshit re…

So you are saying that we should just accept that we have lost our privacy rather than to continue advocating for it?

Yes.

That, instead of "people who think that this is an erosion of privacy are wrong" is exactly what I am saying.

Face scanners at airports change exactly and precisely, with no room for qualifications, unequivocally, irrefutably, nothing.

Re: Senators say TSA's facial recognition program is out of control

#213

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The collection of biometric data is already normalized. It has been normalized since the 1920s, when the FBI's central fingerprint repository was created. And the end goal isn't the system that currently exists. It is a system in which the movement of passengers isn't halted. Someone watched 1990's Total Recall and said "we need a security checkpoint like that". Also, the "Overton window" is a libertarian bullshit re…

>The collection of biometric data is already normalized. So by your logic we should just fully accept its further normalization with absolutely no pushback or regard for any notion of private life and activity? >It has been normalized since the 1920s, when the FBI's central fingerprint repository was created. This is a blatant bullshit comparison that you can't possibly be ignorant enough to compare to modern real-ti…

>So by your logic we should just fully accept its further normalization with absolutely no pushback or regard for any notion of private life and activity?

Yes.

That, instead of "people who think that this is an erosion of privacy are wrong" is exactly my logic.

Face scanners at airports change exactly and precisely, with no room for qualifications, unequivocally, irrefutably, nothing.

Sorry I hurt your libertarian feelings. Some more YouTube videos on stoicism may help. They won't, but keep thinking they will.

Re: Senators say TSA's facial recognition program is out of control

#214
post #191

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's because you can't really drive trains into buildings, and while you could technically do it with a bus, it's not that feasible nor that damaging. Flying a huge intercontinental airliner fully loaded with fuel into a building is quite different. There's very good practical reasons the terrorists chose airplanes and not trains or buses.

Rail related terrorism is not uncommon. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_terrorist_incidents_in...

Some of those were at train stations, not in trains. The same type of terrorism would work any place you find dozens or hundreds of people in close proximity. The whole reason the terrorists in all these incidents targeted trains or train stations is because a somewhat-large number of people were gathered there.

If you want to destroy skyscrapers (and maybe kill thousands or tens of thousands in the process), and not just murder a few dozen people, train-related terrorism isn't going to work for you.

Re: Senators say TSA's facial recognition program is out of control

#215

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The other form of fighting back against this, pushing lawmakers, seems far more effective It's not an "OR" problem. You can do both. > just makes life slightly less convenient for the TSA staff The point is to inconvenience them. I'm willing to bet you are exaggerating even to yourself how minimal this is. Besides, little things add up. It's why you're exhausted with this in the first place. It is how we got here.…

You’re right about that, and I salute your principled stance, but the last thing I want to deal with is making a protest at the checkpoint before I can get to the lounge. These people are standing between me and a free glass of mid wine and the most comfortable place I’m going to be for the next hours. They also have basically unlimited power to make my day worse, delaying me, searching me, doing all kinds of real vi…

  > the last thing I want to deal with is making a protest at the checkpoint before I can get to the lounge.
Remember from the article

  >> TSA Administrator David Pekoske in 2023 in which he said “we will get to the point where we require biometrics across the board.”
An important thing to remember is that power is exponentially more difficult to roll back than it is to give out. The danger is that power creeps and you have a hard time undoing the gains it made. Quite the common human problem of solving issues before they become issues. Perhaps because the reward is ambiguous and so doesn't "feel" as fruitful to most. But every preventable tragedy is doubly tragic.

  > They also have basically unlimited power to make my day worse, delaying me, searching me, doing all kinds of real violations of my rights.

  
    First they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out—because I was not a socialist.

    Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out—because I was not a trade unionist.

    Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out—because I was not a Jew.

    Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me.

    —Martin Niemöller
I understand, but want to stress this. If I've learned anything in life, it is that it takes work to live a simple life. It is worth the work though, because it is less work. But it requires foresight. We humans are bad at that, but the capacity to plan is one of the things that sets us apart (other animals can plan, but not to the same level of sophistication). Be aware that it is always far cheaper to perform maintenance on something than it is to replace or fix something that is broken. This abstracts out to much of life. I get it, we're all tired in the airport, but by pushing the task off to another day, the debt compounds. Sure, you don't have to deal with it now, but the cost still exists, and accrues. You have to balance the equation for yourself, but we must be clear that there is a consequence to all actions, including inaction. Is your time now worth more than your time in the future? Maybe. You have to decide, but I hope you consider future you's opinion as well.

I must also remind you that the reason they have this power, the reason we have this security theater, the reason we have a "safety system" that kills more people than it saves[0], is because we've passed the buck. The reason we're at this state of exhaustion _RIGHT NOW_ is because of our accumulated debt.

So at the minimum, if you're too tired to protest, at least don't try to stop those who are trying to make your life better. Those who are trying to reduce the problem you are frustrated by. If you cannot make the effort, fine I won't judge, but if you convince someone else to choose apathy, then I will. Because frankly, it means you have made __MY__ life harder. Because you have sided with those you are complaining about.

  > Frankly, the quicker robots take their jobs the better, I hope this speeds it up.
I think this is very narrow minded. It is forgetting the past. There wasn't a problem before. Is there good justification as to why we cannot return? Because as I see it, robots replacing TSA is the epitome of what I mentioned before: power being exponentially harder to remove compared to handing it out. Sometimes it is best to replace a squeaky wheel, but sometimes you need to ask if it is even necessary in the first place. In this case, I think not. So no, I don't want robots TSA agents, because frankly, it isn't the humans than are the problem, it is the system.

We're humans. We're __capable__ of thinking through complex things. I hope we do not squander this gift we have.

[0] https://slate.com/business/2012/11/counterproductive-airport...

Re: Senators say TSA's facial recognition program is out of control

#216

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>The collection of biometric data is already normalized. So by your logic we should just fully accept its further normalization with absolutely no pushback or regard for any notion of private life and activity? >It has been normalized since the 1920s, when the FBI's central fingerprint repository was created. This is a blatant bullshit comparison that you can't possibly be ignorant enough to compare to modern real-ti…

>So by your logic we should just fully accept its further normalization with absolutely no pushback or regard for any notion of private life and activity? Yes. That, instead of "people who think that this is an erosion of privacy are wrong" is exactly my logic. Face scanners at airports change exactly and precisely, with no room for qualifications, unequivocally, irrefutably, nothing. Sorry I hurt your libertarian fe…

If anything friend it's you who's got the childish little mindset about these things, and other people. What a silly way to use a brain.

Re: Senators say TSA's facial recognition program is out of control

#217

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When entering the United States they also take fingerprints and a picture of your face.

Fingerprints? I haven't ever had that happen. Perhaps only certain countries?

I am a US resident alien (green card holder) and I have my fingerprints and picture taken each time I enter the United States.

Re: Senators say TSA's facial recognition program is out of control

#218

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You’re right about that, and I salute your principled stance, but the last thing I want to deal with is making a protest at the checkpoint before I can get to the lounge. These people are standing between me and a free glass of mid wine and the most comfortable place I’m going to be for the next hours. They also have basically unlimited power to make my day worse, delaying me, searching me, doing all kinds of real vi…

> the last thing I want to deal with is making a protest at the checkpoint before I can get to the lounge. Remember from the article >> TSA Administrator David Pekoske in 2023 in which he said “we will get to the point where we require biometrics across the board.” An important thing to remember is that power is exponentially more difficult to roll back than it is to give out. The danger is that power creeps and you…

I'm not trying to advocate for apathy, I am happy there are people (like you) that are willing to have this fight, willing to sacrifice their time and risk being punished by the state for this.

Re: Senators say TSA's facial recognition program is out of control

#219
post #193
post #158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It doesn't, though. I haven't seen shorter lines or faster-moving lines at SFO, for example, since they implemented facial recognition. And it seems like they have the same number of people staffing the ID checkpoint as they did before as well.

Well, I've seen faster lines in LAX, so YMMV?

We need more real data. Last time I went through security at SFO there were no other passengers there.

Re: Senators say TSA's facial recognition program is out of control

#220
post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was there and they didn't do an iris scan. Taking a photo and fingerprint is pretty standard everywhere.

The selfie normalized public photography. Travel by plane/DMV applications normalized fingerprinting. What’s next? Semen and blood samples as well? The terrorists have won. Fear has ruled the major powers of the world. And the current major power of the free world is a puppet and an all around idiot.

> What’s next? Semen and blood samples as well?

That would seriously hamper ~50% or so of the worlds population from travel

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