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Senators say TSA's facial recognition program is out of control

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Re: Senators say TSA's facial recognition program is out of control

#81

Post by bayindirh »

casenmgreen wrote: post #78
mu53 wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Facial recognition systems like this are used everywhere in china. Its common for gates in apartment buildings. Its just how things work there. It feel more malicious to pretend its not happening

The problem is that by this it becomes ever more difficult to get rid of an oppressive, dictatorial, unelected and violent Government.

For an insider's perspective about "The Social Credit System", and the biometrics which underpin it, you can watch https://media.ccc.de/v/35c3-9904-the_social_credit_system

It's a long, but interesting talk.

Re: Senators say TSA's facial recognition program is out of control

#82

Post by eesmith »

paxys wrote: post #70
xyst wrote: post #35

Abolish the TSA completely. Get back the billions in funds that are allocated for this security theatre. Unfortunately this will never happen

Unless you are implying having no security at airports whatsoever (which will never happen), abolishing TSA simply means replacing one central agency with hundreds/thousands of private security agencies and companies in every state and city, which will only increase costs.

You should let SFO and the handful of other airports with private security know they can decrease costs by switching to TSA.

Except, quoting https://www.marketplace.org/2016/08/11/pros-and-cons-privati...

> Contractors provide a more flexible workforce for his airport, and on top of that, it’s easier to show people the door, he said.

> “If employees are not performing, they can be dealt with appropriately, better or more effectively on a contract side than a government side,” Sprenger said.

> Labor unions say the real reason airports want to go with contractors is simple: to cut costs. James Mudrock is the president of AFGE Local 1230, the union representing TSA workers in Sacramento, California.

Re: Senators say TSA's facial recognition program is out of control

#83

Post by beej71 »

mistercheph wrote: post #52
beej71 wrote: post #26

I also can't see the tracking difference between a human verifying your identity and entering that into a database and a computer verifying your identity and entering that into a database. But it's still a valid concern as to whether or not this new system is at least as secure and privacy-respecting as the old one.

Automation and scale? You can't imagine how technology that allows a small number of people to automatically surveil billions of people can enable horrors that would be more difficult if you needed to use a labor force of hundreds of thousands of humans?

I don't disagree, but installing face scanners at the same location humans do face scanning and using them the same as they used the humans is not the same as mass surveillance.

Re: Senators say TSA's facial recognition program is out of control

#85

Post by bediger4000 »

0x457 wrote: post #59
bediger4000 wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That will never happen. The long lines and inconveniences are the point, not a side effect. How many shoe bombers does the TSA catch in a day? 0. In a month? 0. Since the only shoe bomber? 0. We still take off our shoes. Same with underwear bombs. 0. We still partially undress and do the nude-a-tron. The point is, we could already ditch the lines, we don't want to.

I mean it's like saying what's the point of a security feature if thing that feature prevents from happening isn't happening after implementing that feature.

Sure, there's some truth to that, but shoe bombs, underpants bombs and the two liquids bombs have never been tried again. If they did, they would set off their shoes and underpants in the "cattle maze", where there are several planesfull of people, and nobody has been ID'ed, or x-rayed or swabbed.

There's nothing magical about setting off a bomb on a plane as far as terrorizing a populace goes. Bombs in the mazes before "security" would be effective, as we learned at the Boston Marathon.

Re: Senators say TSA's facial recognition program is out of control

#86

Post by jazzyjackson »

sneak wrote: post #63
jazzyjackson wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I enjoy traveling to Berlin for vacation, as it's a totally different atmosphere around privacy. Default payment is cash, your entry and exit from train stations is not tracked (surveilled perhaps, but you do not tap-in/tap-out or god forbid tap your credit card every time you step on a train like SF or NYC), and it's against the law to publish photographs of someone without their consent. Ask IBM what becomes of dat…

It is not against the law to publish photographs of someone without their consent. People post me to Instagram without my consent in Berlin all of the time.

There are some carve outs for including you in a picture of something else, but there is, at least, social backpressure to swinging a camera around.

Re: Senators say TSA's facial recognition program is out of control

#87

Post by jazzyjackson »

Zanni wrote: post #54
jazzyjackson wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I enjoy traveling to Berlin for vacation, as it's a totally different atmosphere around privacy. Default payment is cash, your entry and exit from train stations is not tracked (surveilled perhaps, but you do not tap-in/tap-out or god forbid tap your credit card every time you step on a train like SF or NYC), and it's against the law to publish photographs of someone without their consent. Ask IBM what becomes of dat…

I appreciate the response, but it seems that database can be constructed with or without facial recognition because photo ID is already required. So, I ask again, why is this bad?

Showing ID to pass a gate is somewhat different than having a timestamped record of the fact that you passed a gate, but I agree that given it's already surveilled it's not a big difference. Still, small differences add up.

Re: Senators say TSA's facial recognition program is out of control

#88

Post by eesmith »

perihelions wrote: post #40
Zanni wrote: post #9

Serious question: why is this bad? Is it just the 3% false negative rate? I don't see the negative privacy implications of face recognition when the alternative is to present your face (via photo ID) anyway.

I mean, it was living memory for many HN'ers that you could travel freely in the United States with doing either. It's a post-9/11 thing that an airline ticket is associated with a unique person, and requires a matching photo ID. There was a time when America's security forces did not routinely surveil its own peoples' movements.

When I was a kid there were classified ads like "Pan Am NYC Dec 20-28, E. Smith, $200 o.b.o" for people who wanted to resell their ticket because they couldn't make the trip. There were no id checks then.

In the 1990s the airplanes jumped at the opportunity to have required id checks so they could take control of the secondary market.

It was still possible to buy a ticket like "E. Smith", but that option was cut off a few years later.

Re: Senators say TSA's facial recognition program is out of control

#89

Post by bediger4000 »

aaomidi wrote: post #58
tokai wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just remove TSA. Airport security provides nothing.

So I’ve heard this a lot, but how can we actually test this? The only realistic test I can imagine here is that the TSA shuts down for a decade and we see what happens?

There's never been a bomb in the maze/lines before security. Why not?

Re: Senators say TSA's facial recognition program is out of control

#90

Post by X-Istence »

netsharc wrote: post #12

When entering China, they take your fingerprints, iris, and I guess face too... I was there in 2019, at one point I was at an airport, and a screen was bragging, "Stand where the camera can see your face, and we'll tell you which way to your gate.". It worked too, the screen displayed my name, flight number and direction to my gate. And implicitly, "We can identify you wherever you are.".

When entering the United States they also take fingerprints and a picture of your face.
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