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The withering dream of a cheap American electric car

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Re: The withering dream of a cheap American electric car

#491

Post by elsonrodriguez »

the_gastropod wrote: post #241

It's weird the Chevy Bolt wasn't mentioned. After the $7500 tax credit, you could get a brand new Chevy Bolt for under $20k. If you haven't driven a Bolt, I can't recommend it more. It's about as perfect as car as I could reasonably dream up. It's a hatchback, minimally gimmicky (compared to, e.g, a Tesla, where so many things are "different" for the sake of being different), unnecessarily fast—truly, it's shocking h…

Picked up a used Bolt as well. Certified used with 7 years left on the battery warranty for about $15k.

Anyone who actually wants a cheap EV can buy a cheap EV.

There's just too many people that think they need a 3 row EV SUV with 500 miles of range, and that it should be under $35k.

Also the goal posts keep getting moved. Used to be people would say EVs will never take off until they hit $35k. Now that there are new EVs that can be had for that price, the new problem is that EVs will never take off unless they're $25k.

Meanwhile just about every EV sales graph shows an upward trajectory regardless of these "requirements".

Re: The withering dream of a cheap American electric car

#492

Post by bryanlarsen »

SoftTalker wrote: post #416
bryanlarsen wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

4 of the trips were 3000km each. Longer trips are actually easier in an EV because you have no expectation of being able to power through without stopping for breaks. And it adds the option of charging overnight at a hotel. It's the medium distance trips that are harder in an EV. A 500-800km trip is something people without kids expect to be able to do without any breaks.

Now you have to find a hotel with (working) overnight charging. These are rare in the USA epecially outside of major cities.

They are rare, but easy to filter for in the standard hotel apps.

For most of my trips I was also able to use block heater plugs, which are ubiquitous in Western Canada. 120V isn't enough to get a full charge overnight, but 8-10 hours of charging at 120V is still adds a nice boost.

Re: The withering dream of a cheap American electric car

#493

Post by knappe »

plandis wrote: post #478
epistasis wrote: post #425

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's an odd way of looking at it. Those who are most able to pay for it are those who are paying for the highest initial costs, lowering the costs for everyone else by improvements in the technology, and making it easier for others to adopt later. Early adopters take lots of risk on things not working out well, and learning what things can go wrong and how to fix them (at additional expense, too.) This is much bett…

It’s literally a government handout for people wealthy enough to buy more expensive cars and solar. That money should have been spent to fund R&D/capital expenditures to make cheaper electric vehicles and solar cells for everyone, TBH.

Which would be great and all, but they already exist. But rather than take advantage of the cheaper existing solar panels and electric cars we'd rather impose massive tariffs on them because of the country making them.

Re: The withering dream of a cheap American electric car

#494

Post by [deleted] »

wannacboatmovie wrote: post #477
bane wrote: post #434

I can't believe that the average price of a car in the U.S. is almost $50k. For rapidly depreciating assets. Here I am working out TCO costs for a range of mid-sized cars for my next purchase, and trying to decide if the extra $2k for a Prius Prime over a Prius will beat the differential in fuel costs for my driving situation. I feel like a chump, but I know it's the smarter thing to do with my money. I coworker of m…

> coworker of mine just spent $100k on a regular old pickup truck > It gets like 11 mpg and uses the 92 octane fuel. I understand hating on pickup trucks is an easy way to farm upvotes on HN, but there is no 'regular pickup truck' in existence that gets 11 mpg. The closest that comes to that is the F-150 Raptor with turbocharged V8 which is a preposterous performance vehicle with a racing engine. It is a luxury item.…

[deleted]

Re: The withering dream of a cheap American electric car

#495

Post by comte7092 »

wannacboatmovie wrote: post #477
bane wrote: post #434

I can't believe that the average price of a car in the U.S. is almost $50k. For rapidly depreciating assets. Here I am working out TCO costs for a range of mid-sized cars for my next purchase, and trying to decide if the extra $2k for a Prius Prime over a Prius will beat the differential in fuel costs for my driving situation. I feel like a chump, but I know it's the smarter thing to do with my money. I coworker of m…

> coworker of mine just spent $100k on a regular old pickup truck > It gets like 11 mpg and uses the 92 octane fuel. I understand hating on pickup trucks is an easy way to farm upvotes on HN, but there is no 'regular pickup truck' in existence that gets 11 mpg. The closest that comes to that is the F-150 Raptor with turbocharged V8 which is a preposterous performance vehicle with a racing engine. It is a luxury item.…

The grudges are valid.

The default in America is to make everything out to be individualistic, but the rest of us have to bear the very real costs of the externality of pickups, not just limited to pollution but also safety, land use, etc.

Re: The withering dream of a cheap American electric car

#496

Post by snozolli »

_heimdall wrote: post #106
lmm wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

IIRC the US has some ass-backwards fuel economy laws that mean it's essentially illegal to produce small cars. Also there's enough demand for high-margin cars to max out available production capacity, and would you want to be making major investments in ICE car production right now?

Unless I'm mistaken, a big reason we don't have smaller cars in the US (other than consumer demand) is related to safety regulations rather than fuel economy laws. > would you want to be making major investments in ICE car production right now? I would if I were a car manufacturer, at least in addition to other projects that I may have investing in alternative fuels. I haven't dug deeply into all the issues VW is dea…

Unless I'm mistaken, a big reason we don't have smaller cars in the US (other than consumer demand) is related to safety regulations rather than fuel economy laws.

It's a combination of everything. Trucks keep getting bigger because it's how they game the fuel efficiency requirements. Small cars get bigger because of safety standards. Consumers in the US don't really want small cars, partly because we've gotten bigger a partly because it's terrifying to be on the road with the aforementioned trucks.

Similarly, cars seem really boring these days because most people want something big enough (i.e. CUV like the RAV4), and because safety standards for things like pedestrian impact have constrained the designers. So, we end up with a bunch of CUVs that I can't tell apart.

Re: The withering dream of a cheap American electric car

#497

Post by seanmcdirmid »

kube-system wrote: post #251
seanmcdirmid wrote: post #225

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A lot of people buying BEVs aren’t doing it for economy or environment, but for the driving experience. It’s a splurge for sure, but it makes driving more fun.

That's the problem in the OP -- EVs in the US sell only when they are premium vehicles. Cheap EVs don't quite drive like a Model 3. People don't buy a Leaf over a Prius Prime because of a better driving experience... and something cheaper than a Leaf is going to be similarly utilitarian.

Then we are pretty much aligned? I don't think, at least in the USA, that cheap EVs make much sense. The value proposition definitely changes in other countries with higher gas prices.

Re: The withering dream of a cheap American electric car

#498

Post by redwall_hp »

kube-system wrote: post #166
f1refly wrote: post #156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe because PHEV are a really dumb idea? You're lugging around two complete powertrains the whole time, a massive waste of energy!

Not really. PHEVs are usually one-and-a-half drivetrains at most. They're almost never as complicated as a separate BEV and ICE drivetrains would be individually.

They don't typically have a full transmission or CVT either. Taking the new hybrid Civic for example: it just has a basic planetary gearbox that handles forward, reverse and highway cruising.

Any time you're not at highway cruising speed, it's just in the normal position where the electric motor drives it (the engine only functions as a generator). It's effectively an electric car with a small, far under provisioned in Civic terms, engine that comes on to top the battery up sometimes if regen braking isn't enough.

At highway speeds, the gearbox has the engine drive. And since it's a less powerful engine, it will have better fuel economy than one that has to ever handle acceleration from a standstill.

And the whole thing weighs about 3200-3400lb, far less than any electric vehicle. So you're "lugging" around less.

Re: The withering dream of a cheap American electric car

#499

Post by selimthegrim »

jklinger410 wrote: post #382
knowitnone wrote: post #378

After reading some of the comments, the next questions, why are automakers not building plants in Africa? Cheap labor force, cheap land, probably needs education and training. China is courting Africa, is the US?

France has dibs on Africa. Plus, the American manufacturing industry was our gift to and remains our primary bargaining chip with CCP. We wouldn't dare give it to anyone else.

Tell Mali and Niger that

Re: The withering dream of a cheap American electric car

#500

Post by smileysteve »

blackeyeblitzar wrote: post #8
rootusrootus wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the EV car market is lacking demand There is scant evidence for this. Every time prices improve, sales surge. Sounds like the demand is there, but price matters. As it always has.

I guess I don’t understand the advantage of EVs really. Isn’t a plug in hybrid the best option? You can do everyday short trips on battery but also have the gas engine for longer trips. Sure it is more complicated but Toyota has shown that you can make this super reliable.

Generally, no, a plug in hybrid is not the best option.

Where > 95% of trips are 2x30 mile trips (daily commuting); the vehicle is accelerating and decelerating the extra weight for no benefit. You have the increased battery wear, where you exceed the optimal charging range 15-80% on LiPo. Then the additional ICE factors such as brake wear, oil changes, fuel rot (if you always charge and buy gas once a quarter), coolant changes, an an exhaust system increase maintenance necessities significantly (where a brushless motor has no need for oil or open coolant).

Hybrids can also promote "green washing" ~ it's never charged and driven on short commute trips, the system is always charging the electric, using more gas than if it were only gas, with lower performance, a shorter battery life, and more components to fail.

The best option, is somewhere between renting an hybridICE for less than once a quarter > 200 mile one way, road trips; and, if your household driving is out of norms, ie > 200 miles road trips every week, having a car in the household fleet that is hybrid/ice.

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