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The withering dream of a cheap American electric car

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Re: The withering dream of a cheap American electric car

#251

Post by kube-system »

seanmcdirmid wrote: post #225
kube-system wrote: post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

HEVs and PHEVs are usually no more complicated or burdensome to maintain than an ICE car, as their architecture often eliminates or mitigates some problematic ICE parts. Furthermore, very few new car buyers continue to own a car towards the tail-end slope of the product-failure bathtub curve. The advantage to (P)HEVs over BEVs is not driving performance, but versatility. But yeah, don't buy a Prius Prime for the trac…

A lot of people buying BEVs aren’t doing it for economy or environment, but for the driving experience. It’s a splurge for sure, but it makes driving more fun.

That's the problem in the OP -- EVs in the US sell only when they are premium vehicles. Cheap EVs don't quite drive like a Model 3. People don't buy a Leaf over a Prius Prime because of a better driving experience... and something cheaper than a Leaf is going to be similarly utilitarian.

Re: The withering dream of a cheap American electric car

#252

Post by cpburns2009 »

OptionOfT wrote: post #41
wlesieutre wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Quite a few $20k ish , though only the Forte actually making it under that. Forte LX starting at $19,900. Of course that's without without the $1,155 "destination" fee, so even the Forte really starts at $21,145. But considering inflation, $21k isn't a bad price.

We need laws that ban these junk fees. Any advertised price should be one I can get when I walk in. I cannot get the car without registration. I cannot get the car without 'destination' fee. Bake it into the price.

The destination fee is baked into the price in my experience. I recently priced used vs new cars, and every new car had the destination fee embedded in the advertised price. Customizing a car on the Kia website included the destination fee. No dealership in my metro tacked on an additional destination fee. The destination fee was line-itemed for total MSRP on the window sticker.

Re: The withering dream of a cheap American electric car

#253

Post by chessgecko »

AgentOrange1234 wrote: post #9
bartvk wrote: post #2

https://archive.ph/9oIT4 I wish it would have adjusted for inflation. One quote: "The average transaction price for a new vehicle sold in the U.S. last month was $48,623, according to Kelley Blue Book, roughly $10,000 higher than in 2019, before the pandemic." However, about 9200 euros of that is due to inflation according to this calculator: https://www.usinflationcalculator.com/ That's a nitpick though. All in all,…

If even ICE cars are now super expensive, why isn’t this a screaming opportunity for some auto manufacturer to target the low end of the market? I’ve never spent more than 20k for a car. With prices like this, I’m just going to keep my old one as long as I can.

The real reason is that it's basically impossible to produce a cheap new car that is a better deal than a Toyota with 80k miles on it.

Re: The withering dream of a cheap American electric car

#254

Post by mikestew »

vundercind wrote: post #175
warner25 wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Nissan Versa currently starts around $17k, and I see a lot of those on the road. The Mitsubishi Mirage is similarly priced but I don't think I've ever seen one in the wild. I rented a Kia Soul a few years ago and thought it was perfectly fine. But with so few options, like the parent, I'm planning to keep my current car (a 2008 Prius) indefinitely, just paying for repairs as needed until parts are unavailable or…

Closer to $20k than $10k seems insane for a budget-tier car, to me. I guess that's my age showing, but it wasn't that long ago (ten years ago? Twelve?) my in-laws got basically two identical Chevys of their shittiest possible model for under $10,000 combined . Granted I think it was the previous model year, but they weren't used cars or anything.

40 years ago, the Yugo was sold in the U. S. for $4500. I’m not questioning the truth of your story, but I think it a poor basis for arguing that cars should be $10K today. The dealer obviously was willing to take a loss to get those Chevys off the lot.

Re: The withering dream of a cheap American electric car

#255

Post by max2 »

GratiaTerra wrote: post #248

I took advantage of the IRA solar power and $7500 EV credit, now I have an off grid home all electric appliances and excess power for hot tubs and EV's. The Ford Lightning acts as a generator. This was the greatest most life changing and impactful legistlation ever: I've had $0 (ZERO!) in gasoline, LP, and electric utility bills since installation last year.

May I ask what state are you in?

Re: The withering dream of a cheap American electric car

#256

Post by adolph »

toast0 wrote: post #211
yurishimo wrote: post #167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They aren't more widely supported because they are more expensive and more complicated to manufacture with a higher potential for more stuff to go wrong. Until the engine that powers a PHEV is nearly drop-in ready for a replacement (for example, going to your local auto parts store and buying a replacement like a battery) then companies need to have service technicians and production lines to support these "engines"…

> PHEV is just too complicated to support long term (imo). PHEV isn't that much more complex than an ICE. The transaxle is typically mechanically simpler, and you have two electric motor/generators instead of an electric motor (starter) and an electric generator (alternator). There's a big battery you need to find room for, and the power wiring. And the engine control is significantly different, but if it doesn't wor…

>> PHEV is just too complicated to support long term (imo).

> PHEV isn't that much more complex than an ICE.

I've been an owner/operator of two Gen3 Prii for 14 years and agree in practice even though in theory I would agree with the complexity argument. The one maintenance hit for both was for the vacuum pump needed for brakes/etc because the car cannot assume the engine is always running.

Toyota has moved to hybrid only for the Camry and Sienna. This is an indicator to me that technology maturity and US manufacturing is where it needs to be for broad adoption.

Re: The withering dream of a cheap American electric car

#257

Post by rootusrootus »

newyankee wrote: post #250
rootusrootus wrote: post #243

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Protecting local manufacturers from cheap offshore labor is rational, especially if the offshore products are being subsidized specifically to undermine incumbents and put them out of business. I get that individual consumers want the cheapest trinket they can find, but the gov't has to be more strategic. And every country does this, including the one that would be the source of these trinkets.

Subsidy cannot work beyond a certain scale. Sure they may have benefitted initially, but in the long run I presume they need some kind of profits to sustain. May be the lead in Chinese EV and battery industries is not purely technological, it is also the supply chain and scale developed over the years. All this talk assumes that USA or Western countries have always had a level playing field whereas companies like Boe…

> All this talk assumes that USA or Western countries have always had a level playing field whereas companies like Boeing or Airbus are prime counter examples

As I said, every country does it. It is rational to protect your own manufacturing industry. China does it. We do it. European countries do it. Just because we protect our own industry does not mean we have to protect China's interests too. That's their problem.

Re: The withering dream of a cheap American electric car

#258

Post by short_sells_poo »

some_random wrote: post #233
short_sells_poo wrote: post #215

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nobody wants this, but in an imperfect world, one has to make suboptimal compromises. You can get an EV, and then have to deal with half a dozen barely competent charging networks each with their own donkey, slow and insecure app, their own quirks and pricing schemes, etc. For some, the tradeoff is worth it, for others it isn't. You can also get a PHEV, which could allow you to use one car for commuting purely on ele…

I think you'll find most normal people find PHEVs extremely attractive propositions that are a perfect compromise between ICE and EVs.

I mean, that's exactly what I'm saying. It's a compromise. A pure EV would be much better if the charging infrastructure was great. If it isn't, then you need a compromise...

Re: The withering dream of a cheap American electric car

#259

Post by busterarm »

yurishimo wrote: post #188
busterarm wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And two million less jobs for Americans. Huge benefit!

Americans vote against their own self interests constantly. How is this any different? Or do you think the US govt couldn't backstop it's own car companies until they became cost competitive? Seems like a win/win if we want to speed up EV adoption and reduce global emissions. If a new $20k EV with 300 miles of range was released tomorrow, we'd see massive adoption similar to the original Model 3. Americans I believe…

America's grid isn't ready for massive EV adoption, nor are its fire departments or insurance underwriters, indoor parking garages, etc.

Price is not the thing holding back EV adoption. The people who are in the $20k car market don't own their own homes and don't have anywhere to plug their theoretical EV into consistently.

EVs as they are now are only as successful as they are because of a set of diehard futurists with cash to burn and excessive government subsidy.

Re: The withering dream of a cheap American electric car

#260

Post by DCH3416 »

JKCalhoun wrote: post #159
cosmic_cheese wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yep. Midrange-to-expensive EVs have been around for long enough that pretty much everybody in those market segments who are currently interested have already bought one. Additionally, the segment has been flooded with midsize SUVs, with the odd midsize sedan — variety is sorely lacking. Between these two, quite a considerable market is being left unaddressed. The first to fill these niches with affordable models that…

> The first to fill these niches with affordable models... And is not tariffed to the point they are not competitive. I'm on the fence as to whether tariffs are good or bad, but I do wonder if an external player might not be able to come in and shake up the US auto industry. I feel like the working class in the U.S. are paying way too much for what amounts to a necessity for their livelihood: the automobile. We'd all…

What would really help the working class is building out actual forms of transportation beyond private automobiles. That way we're not subject to a single point of failure in our ability to move around. Maybe warm up to the idea of ebikes for getting around town, and bring back some trams for city to city connections. Then you can free up the roads for actual useful transit.

The US is one crisis away from our expensive to maintain road infrastructure being unsustainable. The American people are one crisis away from their $60k SUV being worth nothing and still owing a four figure note against it. They're also one fuel crisis away from being unable to pay to use it. And we don't really have any alternatives at a scale to handle those sorts of things.

We're really going to have egg on our face at some point. And the only option will be to import affordable EVs the rest of the world has been building and developing.

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