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The withering dream of a cheap American electric car

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Re: The withering dream of a cheap American electric car

#471

Post by bluGill »

dfxm12 wrote: post #399
solardev wrote: post #268

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Half of America doesn't want to support the incoming administration either, and Musk has decided to closely and personally align himself with it. I wonder if that will affect Tesla sales.

I don't know what will publicly get the blame, but I, and I don't think I'm unique in this regard, am not buying a Tesla because of the documented issues the cars keep having: getting bricked, catching fire, being needlessly difficult to escape in an emergency, tons of unfulfilled promises about new features, etc. On top of this, everyone who I knew who had a Tesla never bought a 2nd.

I'd like to see some real numbers. All to often something gets in the news and so you think there is a real issue while in reality it is no worse than anything else. Statistics are important, otherwise we get lost in our own biases.

It is very common for people to change brands every time they get a new car.

Re: The withering dream of a cheap American electric car

#472

Post by underlipton »

ben_w wrote: post #462
asciimov wrote: post #329

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's too bad that the only people benefiting from all green power subsidies are the people that least need them. We should be investing solar in lower income communities, as those people could really use cheaper utilities, and any saving they get would immediately go back into their communities.

*Waves from Germany* We have self-install balcony PV systems starting at a few hundred euros: https://www.obi.de/p/8073827/absaar-flexibles-balkonkraftwer... I've been to the US a few times, seen AC hanging out of the windows all over the place. If you can do that, and Germany can do this, why can't you also do this? Now sure, it won't cover 100% of demand, but it will help many of the poorest.

HOA and lease restrictions. Also depends on what exposures you have. One place I lived was exclusively western, the other eastern.

Re: The withering dream of a cheap American electric car

#473

Post by EasyMark »

skybrian wrote: post #430
latentcall wrote: post #227

I would love a 10-15K BYD. I was told recently desiring a BYD is un-American when I can spend 3 times the price on a Tesla. No thanks! I’ll hold out for something truly cheap. Cars in America are insanely priced.

If you want something truly cheap, buying a new car doesn’t make a lot of sense. Used cars are a better deal.

Not always, the lower end Toyotas it’s a better deal per mile to buy new, if you are willing to shop around a little and get last year’s model.

Re: The withering dream of a cheap American electric car

#474

Post by warner25 »

vundercind wrote: post #350
warner25 wrote: post #335

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think so... I vividly remember Nissan running commercials for the Versa in late 2008 during the darkest depths of the recession because it was one of the last models selling in the US for under $10k (like $9,990 if you got the manual transmission, etc.). There was also the Smart Fortwo, but it was a two-seater. This page from KBB says that the 2008 Chevy Aveo "had a starting MSRP of $10,610 when new." https:/…

Oh weird, maybe my source was fucked then. I did find it generally hard to find any reliable-seeming info about historical car MSRPs, which seems... odd? It's strange the ways the Web fails to provide certain information (or rather, in this case, I expect it's the way modern search engines fail to surface the information we're looking for). I bought my only-ever (and probably last-ever, as I can't stomach the prices…

Agreed. The Web seems to have a shorter memory than many of us like to think, and ironically seems to be getting shorter.

Re: The withering dream of a cheap American electric car

#475

Post by bluGill »

datavirtue wrote: post #367
klooney wrote: post #345

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which is good, we don't want electric cars to become a culture war issue

Have you ever gotten behind a diesel truck with emissions deleted? I have...a lot. The roll coal crowd doesn't have EV on their radar whatsoever.

That isn't quite true. They are aware of EV trucks - they won't buy one of course, but they are aware. They spread stories about those trucks not having any useful range (which is true - when pulling a trailer or driving well over the speed limit the EVs lose range) Those diesel trucks they drive get 600 miles unloaded.

Re: The withering dream of a cheap American electric car

#476

Post by lenerdenator »

fred_is_fred wrote: post #131
lenerdenator wrote: post #98

Consider who builds American EVs: 1) a SV/Texas "tech" company, which, by its very identity, must yield insane returns to shareholders 2) Legacy auto companies who must yield insane returns to both shareholders and, to a lesser extent, retired employees. In their defense, the second group actually did work Compare this to Chinese EV makers who are dumpi - I mean, willing to take less return on their sale in order to…

So your issue is that US public companies need return on investment, but that Chinese ones don't? There's nothing "insane" about the ROI at GM or Ford...

That's the issue, yes.

The Chinese are selling either at a loss or far below the return expectations of their competitions' investors. They're not going to stop, because they want to drive everyone else out of the market. The solution is to drop things like dividends and executive bonuses down to sane (or, really, non-existent) levels and pass along the savings to the customer.

Otherwise there might not be a company to collect ROI on in a decade or two. Not that most shareholders care; they hire a guy specifically to engineer the holdings so that they can drop any one of them and not lose lots of value.

Re: The withering dream of a cheap American electric car

#477

Post by wannacboatmovie »

bane wrote: post #434

I can't believe that the average price of a car in the U.S. is almost $50k. For rapidly depreciating assets. Here I am working out TCO costs for a range of mid-sized cars for my next purchase, and trying to decide if the extra $2k for a Prius Prime over a Prius will beat the differential in fuel costs for my driving situation. I feel like a chump, but I know it's the smarter thing to do with my money. I coworker of m…

> coworker of mine just spent $100k on a regular old pickup truck

> It gets like 11 mpg and uses the 92 octane fuel.

I understand hating on pickup trucks is an easy way to farm upvotes on HN, but there is no 'regular pickup truck' in existence that gets 11 mpg. The closest that comes to that is the F-150 Raptor with turbocharged V8 which is a preposterous performance vehicle with a racing engine. It is a luxury item. Yet for some reason we don't criticize people with the same disdain who buy and drive sports cars which get as bad or even worse mpg. I guess the Lambo drivers never need to haul lumber.

The F-150 is also offered in hybrid (which gets > double that mpg) and all electric drivetrains.

I will make the equally presumptuous assumption that since you've narrowed your choices to "Prius or Prius" you harbor some grudges against pickup owners.

Re: The withering dream of a cheap American electric car

#478

Post by plandis »

epistasis wrote: post #425
asciimov wrote: post #329

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's too bad that the only people benefiting from all green power subsidies are the people that least need them. We should be investing solar in lower income communities, as those people could really use cheaper utilities, and any saving they get would immediately go back into their communities.

That's an odd way of looking at it. Those who are most able to pay for it are those who are paying for the highest initial costs, lowering the costs for everyone else by improvements in the technology, and making it easier for others to adopt later. Early adopters take lots of risk on things not working out well, and learning what things can go wrong and how to fix them (at additional expense, too.) This is much bett…

It’s literally a government handout for people wealthy enough to buy more expensive cars and solar.

That money should have been spent to fund R&D/capital expenditures to make cheaper electric vehicles and solar cells for everyone, TBH.

Re: The withering dream of a cheap American electric car

#479

Post by deskamess »

gradus_ad wrote: post #208

Why isn't there more focus on plain old Hybrids? Not PHEV's... Aren't they a best of both worlds approach? What am I missing.

I think they can work well if you do a lot of city driving (where you brake a lot). So in a sense, it's the best of both worlds.

They are cheaper than pure EV's and do not require the home charging infrastructure.

Re: The withering dream of a cheap American electric car

#480

Post by M4rkJW »

rootusrootus wrote: post #61
bryanlarsen wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're never going to a hybrid under $25,000. Pretty much everywhere but the US has the option of getting an electric car for under $25,000 from BYD or Renault. I've done over 20,000 km in road trips in an EV. You charge while you're eating or toileting or sleeping, it doesn't affect my trips.

I agree, the range has rarely been a problem for me. The battery runs out of juice about the time my butt needs a break, my bladder needs emptying, and my stomach needs filling. By the time I'm done with lunch, I'm good for another 250-300 miles, and I'm going to stop for the night at that point anyway. People doing >500 miles per day on a roadtrip are the outliers. Way, way outliers.

I drive home from Virginia to Florida in a single day, typically with one stop at the Florence, SC Buc-ee's. That's nearly 600 miles (in a gas RAV4). I do this a couple times a year and it takes about 9 hours, less if there's no cops.
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