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The withering dream of a cheap American electric car

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Re: The withering dream of a cheap American electric car

#131

Post by fred_is_fred »

lenerdenator wrote: post #98

Consider who builds American EVs: 1) a SV/Texas "tech" company, which, by its very identity, must yield insane returns to shareholders 2) Legacy auto companies who must yield insane returns to both shareholders and, to a lesser extent, retired employees. In their defense, the second group actually did work Compare this to Chinese EV makers who are dumpi - I mean, willing to take less return on their sale in order to…

So your issue is that US public companies need return on investment, but that Chinese ones don't? There's nothing "insane" about the ROI at GM or Ford...

Re: The withering dream of a cheap American electric car

#132

Post by [deleted] »

WorldMaker wrote: post #120
bryanlarsen wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're never going to a hybrid under $25,000. Pretty much everywhere but the US has the option of getting an electric car for under $25,000 from BYD or Renault. I've done over 20,000 km in road trips in an EV. You charge while you're eating or toileting or sleeping, it doesn't affect my trips.

> Pretty much everywhere but the US has the option of getting an electric car for under $25,000 from BYD or Renault. The US is afraid of competition in the automotive industry and the current import tariffs and taxes on cars are a bit of an elephant in the room here, too.

[deleted]

Re: The withering dream of a cheap American electric car

#133

Post by Workaccount2 »

ToucanLoucan wrote: post #44
rootusrootus wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the EV car market is lacking demand There is scant evidence for this. Every time prices improve, sales surge. Sounds like the demand is there, but price matters. As it always has.

Because demand isn't the issue. The issue is a new car that isn't a budget brand is increasingly a luxury option in the United States, because, and say it with me... Wages have been stagnant in the United States for nearly 50 years. Every economic stat right now points to this as the core issue. Consumers are squeezed more on every last good and service, tons of services are now only available via subscriptions which…

>Wages have been stagnant in the United States for nearly 50 years.

https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/CES0500000003

https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/LEU0252881500A

There simply isn't data to back this up.

What you are referring to is capital gains (CEO pay) compared to hourly pay (employee pay), which is a misleading apples to oranges comparison.

Re: The withering dream of a cheap American electric car

#134

Post by WorldMaker »

burnt-resistor wrote: post #94
underseacables wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I love Aptera! I just don't think it's ever going to take off. There's just not enough investment and demand. It looks ridiculous but it's an awesome concept of aerodynamics.

Sorry to burst your bubble, but unless there is another solar option, the 100 kWh pack will take around 40 days to charge by solar at 700W from 20% to 80%. Otherwise, it seems like the solar part is greenwashing with a bit of '70's-style geodesic dome and Balans chair styling. I'm all for cheap(er) EVs that don't involve Tesla like Scout or BYD.

The solar adds 40 miles roughly every 8 hours of sunlight. Of course it's not a way to get 100% charged regularly, but how often do you need the battery at 100%? 40 "free" miles a business day is still a game changer in fuel usage.

Re: The withering dream of a cheap American electric car

#136

Post by JohnFen »

matthewdgreen wrote: post #127
cosmic_cheese wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yep. Midrange-to-expensive EVs have been around for long enough that pretty much everybody in those market segments who are currently interested have already bought one. Additionally, the segment has been flooded with midsize SUVs, with the odd midsize sedan — variety is sorely lacking. Between these two, quite a considerable market is being left unaddressed. The first to fill these niches with affordable models that…

A big part of that market is being addressed by used EVs, which are getting much cheaper right now as they age out of new-car-buyers' households. https://www.kbb.com/cars-for-sale/used/tesla

I wouldn't buy a used EV because the battery pack is that much closer to needing to be replaced, which effectively totals the vehicle.

Re: The withering dream of a cheap American electric car

#137

Post by vundercind »

rootusrootus wrote: post #3
bartvk wrote: post #2

https://archive.ph/9oIT4 I wish it would have adjusted for inflation. One quote: "The average transaction price for a new vehicle sold in the U.S. last month was $48,623, according to Kelley Blue Book, roughly $10,000 higher than in 2019, before the pandemic." However, about 9200 euros of that is due to inflation according to this calculator: https://www.usinflationcalculator.com/ That's a nitpick though. All in all,…

> the EV car market is lacking demand There is scant evidence for this. Every time prices improve, sales surge. Sounds like the demand is there, but price matters. As it always has.

I can't make great use of a full EV but would love more AWD PHEV options, of which there are currently few and they're mostly very expensive. A PHEV can be my everything-car that runs entirely on electricity for 90% of trips. I assume there's some reason they're not a more widely-supported option, but damn, I wish they were more common.

Re: The withering dream of a cheap American electric car

#138

Post by avgDev »

jaco6 wrote: post #18
blackeyeblitzar wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I guess I don’t understand the advantage of EVs really. Isn’t a plug in hybrid the best option? You can do everyday short trips on battery but also have the gas engine for longer trips. Sure it is more complicated but Toyota has shown that you can make this super reliable.

An advantage of a pure EV over a hybrid is that you don’t have the maintenance liability of the combustion engine, cooling system, and transmission.

Combustion engine is a perfected tech, which can easily last 100K+ miles. EVs do have a cooling system for the battery.

EVs also have a battery which can be $20k, and electric motors which are $10k. This really makes them awful on the used market when the warranty runs out. If a used Model 3 needs a battery it is basically scrap.

Re: The withering dream of a cheap American electric car

#139

Post by rsynnott »

AgentOrange1234 wrote: post #9
bartvk wrote: post #2

https://archive.ph/9oIT4 I wish it would have adjusted for inflation. One quote: "The average transaction price for a new vehicle sold in the U.S. last month was $48,623, according to Kelley Blue Book, roughly $10,000 higher than in 2019, before the pandemic." However, about 9200 euros of that is due to inflation according to this calculator: https://www.usinflationcalculator.com/ That's a nitpick though. All in all,…

If even ICE cars are now super expensive, why isn’t this a screaming opportunity for some auto manufacturer to target the low end of the market? I’ve never spent more than 20k for a car. With prices like this, I’m just going to keep my old one as long as I can.

Looking at what's available in Ireland at the moment, in the 20-30k range there's a Nissan, a VW (though it's the ancient e-Up, due to be replaced by the i2 any day now), a BYD, a Fiat, an MG, and an Ora (tragically no longer under the names "Good Cat", or "Funky Cat", presumably because Ora got around to hiring someone who had heard of marketing).

There are a bunch more in this price range due to launch next year.

Cheap-ish electric cars exist, they're just not, generally, suited to US consumer preferences.

Re: The withering dream of a cheap American electric car

#140

Post by PittleyDunkin »

Workaccount2 wrote: post #133
ToucanLoucan wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because demand isn't the issue. The issue is a new car that isn't a budget brand is increasingly a luxury option in the United States, because, and say it with me... Wages have been stagnant in the United States for nearly 50 years. Every economic stat right now points to this as the core issue. Consumers are squeezed more on every last good and service, tons of services are now only available via subscriptions which…

>Wages have been stagnant in the United States for nearly 50 years. https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/CES0500000003 https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/LEU0252881500A There simply isn't data to back this up. What you are referring to is capital gains (CEO pay) compared to hourly pay (employee pay), which is a misleading apples to oranges comparison.

> What you are referring to is capital gains (CEO pay) compared to hourly pay (employee pay), which is a misleading apples to oranges comparison.

I assumed it was the infamous wage vs productivity chart.

https://www.epi.org/productivity-pay-gap/

This certainly aligns a lot better with what they're saying than talking about executive pay (though I'm sure that's also part of the problem).

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