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Google’s TOS doesn’t eliminate a user’s Fourth Amendment rights, judge rules [pdf]

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271–280 of 316 posts

Re: Google’s TOS doesn’t eliminate a user’s Fourth Amendment rights, judge rules [pdf]

#271

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>You and I (as innocent people) are more likely to be affected by bad police behavior than the few bad people themselves and so we support the bad people going free. I know anecdotes aren't data, but my only negative interactions with cops have basically been for traffic tickets. Meanwhile my negative interactions with criminals have been far more numerous, along with several second-order effects caused by their mere…

There is a reality distortion field in existence now because almost every police interaction is recorded (body cams are everywhere nowadays) and the ones that go bad are put on full blast across social media and the news, despite them being somewhere on the order of 1 in 1,000,000 encounters. Seriously, if car accidents were reported like police accidents, we probably would have been forced by confused ideologues to…

Given that they're over 100 deaths a day in the US (as of 2022), we probably should consider car accidents more than we do.

(But they pretty much do report on them consistently on local news... People won't stop driving because the social benefit is so large).

Re: Google’s TOS doesn’t eliminate a user’s Fourth Amendment rights, judge rules [pdf]

#272
post #263

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As someone not from the US the fact that "uwu we didn't know" is an adequate defense for the police to do something illegal is really weird. Is there some crucial context I'm missing?

It wasn't illegal (unconstitutional) at the time they did it, which is different from not knowing. They would have had to see the future to know. Also keep in mind "illegal" and "unconstitutional" are different levels - "illegal" deals with specific laws, "unconstitutional" deals with violating a person's rights. Laws can be declared unconstitutional and repealed.

I don't know. I feel that if something is declared "unconstitutional" today, then it was always unconstitutional (from inception of or amendment to the constitution). Unlike "illegal" in which laws can come and go, so something that is illegal today can be legal tomorrow. And just like "ignorance is no excuse for breaking a law", I don't thing ignorance should be an excuse for doing something unconstitutional.

Re: Google’s TOS doesn’t eliminate a user’s Fourth Amendment rights, judge rules [pdf]

#273

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wonder what happened to fruit of the poisoned tree? Seems a lot more liberty oriented than "good faith exception" when police don't think they need a warrant (because police never seem to "think" they need a warrant).

The cited ruling answers your question The court ruled that at the time , when the State Police opened the file, they had no reason to believe that a warrant was required. While the search was later ruled unconstitutional, no court had ruled it was unconstitutional *at the time of the search*. One of the cornerstones of American jurisprudence is that you cannot go back in time and overrule decisions based on contempo…

Just another way cops can be terrible at their job and get away with it. If only citizens could use the Chappelle defense, "I'm sorry officer, I didn't know I couldn't do that".

Re: Google’s TOS doesn’t eliminate a user’s Fourth Amendment rights, judge rules [pdf]

#274

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As someone not from the US the fact that "uwu we didn't know" is an adequate defense for the police to do something illegal is really weird. Is there some crucial context I'm missing?

It dates back to the constitutional ban on "ex post facto" laws. Meaning, the government can't retroactively make something illegal. Which is a good thing, IMO. So, for example, it's illegal at the federal level to manufacture machine guns (and I'm not going to get into a gun debate or nuances as to what defines a machine gun--it's just an example). But a machine gun is legal as long as it was manufactured before the…

> Because the government can't say "hey, destroy that thing that was legal to manufacture, purchase, and own when it was manufactured."

Actually that's a totally normal way for bans to work.

If a state decides to ban a book from school libraries, the libraries don't get to keep the books on the shelves because they already had it.

The ban on ex post facto laws merely means that, if a ban on a given book is passed today a librarian can't be punished for having it on the shelves yesterday.

Grandfathering in exceptions is just politics - make a bitter pill easier to swallow for the people most impacted; delay the costs of any remediation; deal with historical/museum pieces; and simplify enforcement.

Re: Google’s TOS doesn’t eliminate a user’s Fourth Amendment rights, judge rules [pdf]

#275

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What I mean specifically is that because the police saw illegally obtained evidence, all evidence collected afterward after that point should be considered fruit of the poisoned tree and inadmissible

I think reasonable people can disagree on this. Fruit of the poisoned tree doctrines eliminate bad incentives for law enforcement to commit crimes in their investigations. But when doctrines such as this cause the guilty to go free, it erodes public confidence in the rule of law. Like many things, its a tradeoff - and the legal system is a process of discovery and adaptation, not some simplistic set of unchangeable r…

The public are generally closeted authoritarians (see: pandemic, 9/11), and their opinions on fair trials, evidentiary rules, surveillance, and constitutional freedoms should not be regarded

Re: Google’s TOS doesn’t eliminate a user’s Fourth Amendment rights, judge rules [pdf]

#276
post #21

> Google’s hash match may well have established probable cause for a warrant to allow police to conduct a visual examination of the Maher file. Very reasonable. Google can flag accounts as CP, but then a judge still needs to issue a warrant for the police to actually go and look at the file. Good job court. Extra points for reasoning about hash values.

I'm trying to imagine a more "real-world" example of this to see how I feel about it. I dislike that there is yet another loophole to gain access to peoples' data for legal reasons, but this does feel like a reasonable approach and a valid goal to pursue. I guess it's like if someone noticed you had a case shaped exactly like a machine gun, told the police, and they went to check if it was registered or not? I suppos…

>yet another loophole

What's the new legal loophole? I believe what's described above is the same as it's been for decades, if not centuries.

Disclosure: I work at Google but not on anything related to this.

Re: Google’s TOS doesn’t eliminate a user’s Fourth Amendment rights, judge rules [pdf]

#277

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wait until Trump is in power and corporations are masterfully using these tools to “mow the grass” (if you want an existing example of this, look at Putin’s Russia, where people get jail time for any pro-Ukraine mentions on social media).

[flagged]

The only one sounding like Putin is Hillary Clinton and her numerous acolytes in the government.

So sure, let’s talk more about Trump.

Except she's no longer running for office, last we checked.

under the Biden/Harris regime,

Except it wasn't a "regime", and neither was Trump's administration. Both were democratically elected governments, whether you happen to like them or not.

Meanwhile, if you live and breathe according to emotionally manipulative language like this, then you already have a "regime" of sorts installed in your head.

Re: Google’s TOS doesn’t eliminate a user’s Fourth Amendment rights, judge rules [pdf]

#278

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The cited ruling answers your question The court ruled that at the time , when the State Police opened the file, they had no reason to believe that a warrant was required. While the search was later ruled unconstitutional, no court had ruled it was unconstitutional *at the time of the search*. One of the cornerstones of American jurisprudence is that you cannot go back in time and overrule decisions based on contempo…

Just another way cops can be terrible at their job and get away with it. If only citizens could use the Chappelle defense, "I'm sorry officer, I didn't know I couldn't do that".

Let's be clear. This guy had CSAM and was caught using digital forensics. The cops would've been able to secure the search warrant at the time had they been required to do so.

This isn't some innocent person who is spending time in prison because of a legal technicality.

Re: Google’s TOS doesn’t eliminate a user’s Fourth Amendment rights, judge rules [pdf]

#279
post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Consumption per se does not incentivize it, though; procurement does. It's not unreasonable to causally connect one to the other, but I still think that it needs to be done explicitly. Strict liability for possession in particular is nonsense. There's also an interesting question wrt simulated (drawn, rendered etc) CSAM, especially now that AI image generators can produce it in bulk. There's no individual suffering n…

> Consumption per se does not incentivize it, It can. In several public cases it seems fairly clear that there is a "community" aspect to these productions and many of these sites highlight the number of downloads or views of an image. It creates an environment where creators are incentivized to go out of their way to produce "popular" material. > Strict liability for possession in particular is nonsense. I entirely…

> It can. In several public cases it seems fairly clear that there is a "community" aspect to these productions and many of these sites highlight the number of downloads or views of an image. It creates an environment where creators are incentivized to go out of their way to produce "popular" material.

So long as it's all drawn or generated, I don't see why we should care.

> I entirely disagree. Offenders tend to increase their level of offense.

This claim reminds me of similar ones about how video games are "on-ramp" to actual violent crime. It needs very strong evidence to back, especially when it's used to justify harsh laws. Evidence which we don't really have because most studies of pedophiles that we have are, by necessity, focused on the ones known to the system, which disproportionally means ones that have been caught doing some really nasty stuff to real kids.

> I entirely disagree. Offenders tend to increase their level of offense. This is about preventing the problem from becoming worse and new victims being created. It's effectively the same reason we harshly prosecute people who torture animals.

Strict liability for possession means that you can imprison people who don't even know that they have offending material. This is patent nonsense in general, regardless of the nature of what exactly is banned.

> That's a bold claim. Is it based on any facts or study?

It is based on the lack of studies showing a clear causal link. Which is not definitive for the reasons I outlined earlier, but I feel like the onus is on those who want to make it a crime with such harsh penalties to prove said causal link, not the other way around.

Note also that, even if such a clear causal link can be established, surely there is still a difference wrt imputed harm - and thus, culpability - for those who seek out recordings of genuine sexual abuse vs simulated? As things stand, in many jurisdictions, this is not reflected in the penalties at all. Justice aside, it creates a perverse incentive for pedophiles to prefer non-simulated CSAM.

> It's about the potential class of victims and the outrageous life long damage that can be done to them. The appropriate response to recognizing these feelings isn't to hand them AI generated material to sate their desires. It's to get them into therapy immediately.

Are you basically saying that simulated CSAM should be illegal because not banning it would be offensive to real victims of actual abuse? Should we extend this principle to fictional representations of other crimes?

As far as getting them into therapy, this is a great idea, but kinda orthogonal to the whole "and also you get 20+ years in the locker" thing. Even if you fully buy into the whole "gateway drug" theory where consumption of simulated CSAM inevitably leads to actual abuse in the long run, that also means that there are pedophiles at any given moment that are still at the "simulated" stage, and such laws are a very potent deterrent for them to self-report and seek therapy.

With respect to "handing them AI-generated material", this is already a fait accompli given local models like SD. In fact, at this point, it doesn't even require any technical expertise, since image generator apps will happily run on consumer hardware like iPhones, with UI that is basically "type what you want and tap Generate". And unless generated CSAM is then distributed, it's pretty much impossible to restrict this without severe limitations on local image generation in general (basically prohibiting any model that knows what naked humans look like).

Re: Google’s TOS doesn’t eliminate a user’s Fourth Amendment rights, judge rules [pdf]

#280

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It dates back to the constitutional ban on "ex post facto" laws. Meaning, the government can't retroactively make something illegal. Which is a good thing, IMO. So, for example, it's illegal at the federal level to manufacture machine guns (and I'm not going to get into a gun debate or nuances as to what defines a machine gun--it's just an example). But a machine gun is legal as long as it was manufactured before the…

> Because the government can't say "hey, destroy that thing that was legal to manufacture, purchase, and own when it was manufactured." Actually that's a totally normal way for bans to work. If a state decides to ban a book from school libraries, the libraries don't get to keep the books on the shelves because they already had it. The ban on ex post facto laws merely means that, if a ban on a given book is passed tod…

> If a state decides to ban a book from school libraries, the libraries don't get to keep the books on the shelves because they already had it.

That isn’t comparable.

Comparable is a ban on printing that book. Which would not be a ban on existing already printed copies. It would only be a ban on new copies.

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