Earlier quoted context omitted.
At the time, what they did was assumed to be legal because no one had ruled on it. Now, there is prior case law declaring it illegal. The ruling is made in such a way to say “we were allowing this, but we shouldn’t have been, so we wont allow it going forward”. I am not a legal scholar, but that’s the best way I can explain it. The way that the judicial system applies to law is incredibly complex and inconsistent.
This is a deeply problematic way to operate. En masse, it has the right result, but, for the individual that will have their life turned upside down, the negative impact is effectively catastrophic. This ends up feeling a lot like gambling in a casino. The casino can afford to bet and lose much more than the individual.
Google’s TOS doesn’t eliminate a user’s Fourth Amendment rights, judge rules [pdf]
131–140 of 316 posts
Re: Google’s TOS doesn’t eliminate a user’s Fourth Amendment rights, judge rules [pdf]
#132Earlier quoted context omitted.
Is it reasonable? Even if the hash was md5, given valid image files, the chances of it being an accidental collision are way lower than the chance of any other evidence given to a judge was false or misinterpreted.
This is NOT a secure hash. This is an image similar to hash which has many many matches in not related images. Unfortunately the decision didn't mention this at all even though it is important. If it was even as good as a md5 hash (which is broken) I think the search should be allowed without warrant because even though a accidental collision is possible odds are so strongly against it that the courts can safely assu…
> I think the search should be allowed without warrant because even though a accidental collision is possible odds are so strongly against it that the courts can safely assume there isn't
The footnote in the decision bakes this property into the definition of a hash:
A “hash” or “hash value” is “(usually) a short string of characters generated from a much larger string of data (say, an electronic image) using an algorithm—and calculated in a way that makes it highly unlikely another set of data will produce the same value.
(Importantly, this is NOT an accurate definition of a hash for anyone remotely technical... of course hashing algorithms with significant hash collisions exist, and is even a design criterion for some hashing algorithms...)
Re: Google’s TOS doesn’t eliminate a user’s Fourth Amendment rights, judge rules [pdf]
#133Earlier quoted context omitted.
But this court decision is a real world example, and not some esoteric edge case. This is something I don’t think needs analogies to understand. SA/CP image and video distribution is an ongoing moderation, network, and storage issue. The right to not be under constant digital surveillance is somewhat protected in the constitution. I like speech and privacy and am paranoid of corporate or government overreach, but I a…
Wait until Trump is in power and corporations are masterfully using these tools to “mow the grass” (if you want an existing example of this, look at Putin’s Russia, where people get jail time for any pro-Ukraine mentions on social media).
The Apple CSAM hash detection process, that the launch was rolled back, concerned me namely because it was run on-device with no opt out. If this is running on cloud storage then it sort of makes sense. You need to ensure you are not aiding or harboring actually harmful illegal material.
I get there are slippery slopes or whatever but the fact is you cannot just store whatever you wish in a rental. I don’t see this as opening mass regex surveillance of our communication channels. We have the patriot act to do that lol.
Re: Google’s TOS doesn’t eliminate a user’s Fourth Amendment rights, judge rules [pdf]
#134The old example is the email server administrator. If the email administrator has to view the contents of user messages as a part of regular maintenance and that email administrator notices lawful violations in those user messages they can report it to law enforcement. In that case law enforcement can receive the material without a warrant only if law enforcement never asked for it before it was gifted to them. There are no fourth amendment protections provided to offenders in this scenario of third party accidental discovery. Typically, in these cases the email administrator does not have an affirmed requirement to report lawful violations to law enforcement unless specific laws claim otherwise.
If on the other hand law enforcement approaches that email administrator to fish for illegal user content then that email administrator has become an extension of law enforcement and any evidence discovered cannot be used in a criminal proceeding. Likewise, if the email administrator was intentionally looking through email messages for violations of law even not at the request of law enforcement they are still acting as agents of the law. In that case discovery was intentional and not an unintentional product of system maintenance.
There is a third scenario: obscenity. Obscenity is illegal intellectual property, whether digital or physical, as defined by criminal code. Possession of obscene materials is a violation of criminal law for all persons, businesses, and systems in possession. In that case an email administrator that accidentally discovers obscene material does have a required obligation to report their discoveries, typically through their employer's corporate legal process, to law enforcement. Failures to disclose such discoveries potentially aligns the system provider to the illegal conduct of the violating user.
Google's discovery, though, was not accidental as a result of system maintenance. It was due to an intentional discovery mechanism based on stored hashes, which puts Google's conduct in line with law enforcement even if they specified their conduct in their terms of service. That is why the appeals court claims the district court erred by denying the defendant's right to suppression on fourth amendment grounds.
The saving grace for the district court was a good faith exception, such as inevitable discovery. The authenticity and integrity of the hash algorithm was never in question by any party so no search for violating material was necessary, which established probably cause thus allowing law enforcement reasonable grounds to proceed to trial. No warrant was required because the evidence was likely sufficient at trial even if law enforcement did not directly view image in question, but they did verify the image. None of that was challenged by either party. What was challenged was just Google's conduct.
Re: Google’s TOS doesn’t eliminate a user’s Fourth Amendment rights, judge rules [pdf]
#135> Google’s hash match may well have established probable cause for a warrant to allow police to conduct a visual examination of the Maher file. Very reasonable. Google can flag accounts as CP, but then a judge still needs to issue a warrant for the police to actually go and look at the file. Good job court. Extra points for reasoning about hash values.
> a judge still needs to issue a warrant for the police to actually go and look at the file Only in the future. Maher's conviction, based on the warrantless search, still stands because the court found that the "good faith exception" applies--the court affirmed the District Court's finding that the police officers who conducted the warrantless search had a good faith belief that no warrant was required for the search…
Re: Google’s TOS doesn’t eliminate a user’s Fourth Amendment rights, judge rules [pdf]
#136Earlier quoted context omitted.
> Is there any such thing as this surveillence applying to the inside of the renters bed room, bath room, filing cabinet with medical or financial documents, or political for that matter? Yes. Entering property for regular maintenance. Any time a landlord or his agent enters a piece of property, there is implicit surveillance. Some places are more formal about this than others, but anyone who has rented, owned rental…
> ...Google alerted the police to a hash match without actually looking at the image (ie, entering the bedroom). Google cannot have calculated that hash without examining the data in the image. They, or systems under there control obviously looked at the image. It should not legally matter whether the eyes are meat or machine... if anything, machine inspection should be MORE strictly regulated, because of how much ea…
Re: Google’s TOS doesn’t eliminate a user’s Fourth Amendment rights, judge rules [pdf]
#137Earlier quoted context omitted.
The main factual components are as follows: Party A has rented out property to Party B. Party A performs surveillance on or around the property with Party B's knowledge and consent. Party A discovers very high probability evidence that Party B is committing crimes within the property, and then informs the police of their findings. Police obtain a warrant, using Party A's statements as evidence. The closest "real worl…
Is there any such thing as this surveillence applying to the inside of the renters bed room, bath room, filing cabinet with medical or financial documents, or political for that matter? I don't think there is, and I don't think you can reduce reality to being as simple as "owner has more right over property than renter" renter absolutely has at least a few rights in at least a few defined contextx over owner because…
Maybe the warrant uses some abstraction of the contents of that storage locker like the shipping manifest or customs declaration. Maybe someone saw a shadow of an elephant tusk or rhino horn as I was closing the locker door.
Re: Google’s TOS doesn’t eliminate a user’s Fourth Amendment rights, judge rules [pdf]
#138Earlier quoted context omitted.
> Is there any such thing as this surveillence applying to the inside of the renters bed room, bath room, filing cabinet with medical or financial documents, or political for that matter? Yes. Entering property for regular maintenance. Any time a landlord or his agent enters a piece of property, there is implicit surveillance. Some places are more formal about this than others, but anyone who has rented, owned rental…
> ...Google alerted the police to a hash match without actually looking at the image (ie, entering the bedroom). Google cannot have calculated that hash without examining the data in the image. They, or systems under there control obviously looked at the image. It should not legally matter whether the eyes are meat or machine... if anything, machine inspection should be MORE strictly regulated, because of how much ea…
But it does matter, and, perhaps ironically, it matters in a way that gives you STRONGER (not weaker) fourth amendment rights. That's the entire TL;DR of the fine article.
If the court accepted this sentence of yours in isolation, then the court would have determined that no warrant was necessary in any case.
> if anything, machine inspection should be MORE strictly regulated, because of how much easier and cheaper it tends to make surveillance (mass or otherwise).
I don't disagree. In particular: I believe that the "Reasonable Person", to the extent that we remain stuck with the fiction, should be understood as having stronger privacy expectations in their phone or cloud account than they do even in their own bedroom or bathroom.
With respect to Google's actions in this case, this is an issue for your legislator and not the courts. The fourth amendment does not bind Google's hands in any way, and judges are not lawmakers.
Re: Google’s TOS doesn’t eliminate a user’s Fourth Amendment rights, judge rules [pdf]
#139Earlier quoted context omitted.
> a judge still needs to issue a warrant for the police to actually go and look at the file Only in the future. Maher's conviction, based on the warrantless search, still stands because the court found that the "good faith exception" applies--the court affirmed the District Court's finding that the police officers who conducted the warrantless search had a good faith belief that no warrant was required for the search…
I wonder what happened to fruit of the poisoned tree? Seems a lot more liberty oriented than "good faith exception" when police don't think they need a warrant (because police never seem to "think" they need a warrant).
You and I (as innocent people) are more likely to be affected by bad police behavior than the few bad people themselves and so we support the bad people going free.
Re: Google’s TOS doesn’t eliminate a user’s Fourth Amendment rights, judge rules [pdf]
#140Earlier quoted context omitted.
The main factual components are as follows: Party A has rented out property to Party B. Party A performs surveillance on or around the property with Party B's knowledge and consent. Party A discovers very high probability evidence that Party B is committing crimes within the property, and then informs the police of their findings. Police obtain a warrant, using Party A's statements as evidence. The closest "real worl…
The issue of course being the government then pressuring or requiring these companies to look for some sort of content as part of routine operations.
Was that the case here?