Live data from Hacker News

Google’s TOS doesn’t eliminate a user’s Fourth Amendment rights, judge rules [pdf]

ww3.ca2.uscourts.gov

151–160 of 316 posts

Re: Google’s TOS doesn’t eliminate a user’s Fourth Amendment rights, judge rules [pdf]

#151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So you're saying that I craft a file that has the same hash as a CSAM one, I give it to you, you upload it to google, but it also happens to be CSAM, and I've somehow framed you? My point is that a hash (granted, I'm assuming that we're talking about a cryptographic hash function, which is not clear) is much closer to "This is the file" than someone actually looking at it, and that it's definitely more proof of them…

I don't understand. If you contend that it's even better evidence than actually having the file and looking at it, how is not reasonable to then need a judge to issue a warrant to look at it? Are you saying it would be more reasonable to skip that part and go directly to arrest?

[deleted]

Re: Google’s TOS doesn’t eliminate a user’s Fourth Amendment rights, judge rules [pdf]

#152
post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The main factual components are as follows: Party A has rented out property to Party B. Party A performs surveillance on or around the property with Party B's knowledge and consent. Party A discovers very high probability evidence that Party B is committing crimes within the property, and then informs the police of their findings. Police obtain a warrant, using Party A's statements as evidence. The closest "real worl…

> Party A discovers very high probability evidence that Party B is committing crimes within the property ... This isn't accurate: the hashes were purposefully compared to a specific list. They didn't happen to notice it, they looked specifically for it. And of course, what happens when it's a different list?

>> Party A discovers very high probability evidence that Party B is committing crimes within the property ...

> This isn't accurate: the hashes were purposefully compared to a specific list. They didn't happen to notice it, they looked specifically for it.

1. I don't understand how the text that comes on the right side of the colon substantiates the claim on the left side of the colon... I said "discovers", without mention of how it's discovered.

2. The specificity of the search cuts in exactly the opposite direction than you suggest; specificity makes the search far less invasive -- BUT, at the same time, the "everywhere and always" nature of the search makes it more invasive. The problem is the pervasiveness, not the specificity. See https://news.ycombinator.com/user?id=aiforecastthway

> And of course, what happens when it's a different list?

The fact that the search is targeted, that the search is highly specific, and that the conduct plainly criminal, are all, in fact, highly material. The decision here is not relevant to most of the "worst case scenarios" or even "bad scenarios" in your head, because prior assumptions would have been violated prior to this moment in the legal evaluation.

But with respect to your actual argument here... it's really a moot point. If the executive branch starts compelling companies to help them discover political enemies on basis of non-criminal activity, then the court's opinions will have exactly as much force as the army that court proves capable of raising, because such an executive would likely have no respect for the rule of law in any case...

It is reasonable for legislators to draft laws on a certain assumption of good faith, and for courts to interpret law on a certain assumption of good faith, because without that good faith the law is nothing more than a sequence of forceless ink blotches on paper anyways.

Re: Google’s TOS doesn’t eliminate a user’s Fourth Amendment rights, judge rules [pdf]

#153
post #34

It seems like a large part of the ruling hinges on the fact that Google matched the image hash to a hash of a known child pornography image, but didn't require an employee to actually look at that image before reporting it to the police. If they had visually confirmed it was the image they suspected it was based on the hash then no warrant would have been required, but the judge reads that the image hash match is not…

It seems like there just needs to be case law about the qualifications of an image hash in order to be counted as probable cause for a warrant. Of course you could make an image hash be arbitrarily good or bad. I am not at all opposed to any of this "get a damn warrant" pushback from judges. I am also not at all opposed to Google searching it's cloud storage for this kind of content. There are a lot of things I would…

I think if the hashes were made available to the public, we should just flood the internet with matching but completely innocuous images so they can no longer be used to justify a search

Re: Google’s TOS doesn’t eliminate a user’s Fourth Amendment rights, judge rules [pdf]

#154
post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The harshness of sentence is not for the action of keeping the photos in itself, but the individual suffering and social damage caused by the actions that he incentivizes when he consumes such content.

Assuming the person is a passive consumer with no messages / money exchanged with anyone, it is very hard to prove social harm or damage. Sentences should be proportional to the crime. Treating possession of cp as equivalent of literally raping a child just seems absurd to me. IMO, just for the legal protection of the average citizen, a simple possession should never warrant jail time.

CP is better described as "images of child abuse", and the argument is that the viewing is revictimising the child.

You appear to be suggesting that you shouldn't go to prison for possessing images of babies being raped?

Re: Google’s TOS doesn’t eliminate a user’s Fourth Amendment rights, judge rules [pdf]

#155
post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a deeply problematic way to operate. En masse, it has the right result, but, for the individual that will have their life turned upside down, the negative impact is effectively catastrophic. This ends up feeling a lot like gambling in a casino. The casino can afford to bet and lose much more than the individual.

I don't care nearly as much about the 4th amendment when the person is guilty. I care a lot when the person is innocent. Searches of innocent people is costly for the innocent person and so we require warrants to ensure such searches are minimized (even though most warrants are approved, the act of getting on forces the police to be careful). If a search was completely not costly to innocent I wouldn't be against the…

I want guilty people to go free if their 4th amendment rights are violated, thats the only way to ensure police are meticulous about protecting peoples rights

Re: Google’s TOS doesn’t eliminate a user’s Fourth Amendment rights, judge rules [pdf]

#156
post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Just because some porn is child porn, which is bad, doesn't in any way imply that all porn is bad. I think people who want others to stop using the term "child porn" are actually arguing the opposite of this. Porn is good, so calling it "child porn" is making a euphemism or otherwise diminishing the severity of "CSAM" by using the positive term "porn" to describe it.

I don't think the established consensus on the meaning of the word "porn" itself includes some kind of inherent implied positivity, either; not even among people who have a generally positive attitude towards porn.

"Legitimate" is probably a better word. I think you can get the point though. Those I have seen preferring the term CSAM are more concerned about CSAM being perceived less negatively when it is called child porn than they are about consensual porn being perceived more negatively.

Re: Google’s TOS doesn’t eliminate a user’s Fourth Amendment rights, judge rules [pdf]

#157
post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Icky things were historically made illegal all the time, but most of those historical examples have not fared well in retrospect. Modern justice systems are generally predicated on some quantifiable harm for good reasons. Given the extremely harsh penalties at play, I am not at all comfortable about punishing someone with a multi-year prison sentence for possession of a drawn or computer generated image. What exactly…

There's no room for sensible discussion like this in these matters. Not demanding draconian sentences for morally outraging crimes is morally outraging.

I think their point was they think the law should be based off of harms, not necessarily "morals" (since no one can seem to decide on those).

Re: Google’s TOS doesn’t eliminate a user’s Fourth Amendment rights, judge rules [pdf]

#158
post #61
post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The harshness of sentence is not for the action of keeping the photos in itself, but the individual suffering and social damage caused by the actions that he incentivizes when he consumes such content.

Consumption per se does not incentivize it, though; procurement does. It's not unreasonable to causally connect one to the other, but I still think that it needs to be done explicitly. Strict liability for possession in particular is nonsense. There's also an interesting question wrt simulated (drawn, rendered etc) CSAM, especially now that AI image generators can produce it in bulk. There's no individual suffering n…

> Consumption per se does not incentivize it,

It can. In several public cases it seems fairly clear that there is a "community" aspect to these productions and many of these sites highlight the number of downloads or views of an image. It creates an environment where creators are incentivized to go out of their way to produce "popular" material.

> Strict liability for possession in particular is nonsense.

I entirely disagree. Offenders tend to increase their level of offense. This is about preventing the problem from becoming worse and new victims being created. It's effectively the same reason we harshly prosecute people who torture animals.

> nor social damage involved in that at any point,

That's a bold claim. Is it based on any facts or study?

> over the extreme ickiness of the act as opposed to any actual harm caused by it.

It's about the potential class of victims and the outrageous life long damage that can be done to them. The appropriate response to recognizing these feelings isn't to hand them AI generated material to sate their desires. It's to get them into therapy immediately.

Re: Google’s TOS doesn’t eliminate a user’s Fourth Amendment rights, judge rules [pdf]

#159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think that argument supports the better analogy of breaking into a computer or filing cabinet owned by someone renting the space. Just because someone is renting space doesn't give you the right to do whatever you want to them. Cameras in bathrooms of a rented space would be another example.

But he wasn’t running a computer in a rented space, he was using storage space on google’s computers. In an older comment I argued against analogies to rationalize this. I think honestly at face value it is possible to evaluate the goodness or badness of the decision.

Yes, that is why I presented an alternative to the analogy of "import hundreds of pounds of poached ivory and store it in a shipping yard or move it to a long term storage unit".

Like having the right to avoid being videoed in the bathroom, we have the right to avoid unreasonable search of our files by authorities, whether stored locally or on the cloud

Re: Google’s TOS doesn’t eliminate a user’s Fourth Amendment rights, judge rules [pdf]

#160
post #19
post #3

It's crazy that the most dangerous people one regularly encounters can do anything they want as long as they believe they can do it. The good faith exemption has to be one of the most fascist laws on the books today. > "the good faith exception to the exclusionary rule supports denial of Maher’s suppression motion because, at the time authorities opened his uploaded file, they had a good faith basis to believe that n…

Good Samaritan laws tend to function similarly

If I'm not a professional and I hurt someone while trying to save their life by doing something stupid, that's understandable ignorance.

If a doctor stops to help someone and hurts them because the doctor did something stupid, that is malpractice and could get them sued and maybe get their license revoked.

Would you hire a programmer who refused to learn how to code the claimed "good faith" every time they screwed things up? Good faith shouldn't cover willful ignorance. A cop is hired to know, understand, and enforce the law. If they can't do that, they should be fired.

Post reply on HN