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Israel launched a dozen attacks on UN troops in Lebanon, says leaked report

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Re: Israel launched a dozen attacks on UN troops in Lebanon, says leaked report

#281
post #279

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’d say the media’s attitude towards Israel and Palestine is conveniently summarized in the Ta-Nehisi Coates interview with Tony Dokupil.

1. That's just one interview, I'm not sure it's actually representative. 2. Even if you think it is, that's just the US media specifically. I agree that they tend to be relatively pro-Israel, especially compared to other countries, but there are other countries. 3. If we accept that this is representative, can we also consider Ta-Nehisi Coates's book itself to be representative of the attitude of "intellectuals" in t…

Sorry—I was focusing on bias in US media. (I live in the US)

> As he himself said, he came into the topic biased against Israel, went to the West Bank to "study" the issue for 10 days only, chose not to talk to any Israeli at all to get any other side of the issue

What is the other side of the issue? He and actually experts who study Israel call it apartheid. Is it not? If it is, is there a justification for implementing it? Or maybe I’m missing your point.

Re: Israel launched a dozen attacks on UN troops in Lebanon, says leaked report

#282
post #279

Earlier quoted context omitted.

1. That's just one interview, I'm not sure it's actually representative. 2. Even if you think it is, that's just the US media specifically. I agree that they tend to be relatively pro-Israel, especially compared to other countries, but there are other countries. 3. If we accept that this is representative, can we also consider Ta-Nehisi Coates's book itself to be representative of the attitude of "intellectuals" in t…

Sorry—I was focusing on bias in US media. (I live in the US) > As he himself said, he came into the topic biased against Israel, went to the West Bank to "study" the issue for 10 days only, chose not to talk to any Israeli at all to get any other side of the issue What is the other side of the issue? He and actually experts who study Israel call it apartheid. Is it not? If it is, is there a justification for implemen…

Some experts call it apartheid, most Israelis disagree (and Israel officially disagrees). [1]

> If it is, is there a justification for implementing it? Or maybe I’m missing your point.

Well, yes. That's exactly the other side of the issue, and is exactly what a real journalist talking about the Israel/Palestine situation should ideally explore.

This is an HN comment, not exactly the place for the history of the relations between the West Bank and Israel, but the short version is - most of the measures taking place in the WB are a direct result of terror attacks committed by the Palestinians, as a means of securing Israel from future attacks. You can see that relations were much better 40 years ago, it's not like Israel set out to have some kind of apartheid regime over the WB - people from Israel used to go far more freely into the WB, Palestinians used to work far more freely in Israel.

But as more and more attacks happened, Israel implemented various measures to stop terror - including the infamous checkpoints, including various border walls, including limiting work permits for Palestinians.

Looking at a snapshot of the WB now is looking at the end result of worsening relations over many years, with many of the things that seem "cruel" being direct measures to prevent terror attacks; and to prevent things like October 7th happening on a far larger scale, as would happen if it happened from the WB.

Most Israelis believe, probably correctly, that without these security measures, tens of thousands of Israelis would be killed. That would cause almost any country to do whatever it can to secure its "border".

[1] I personally don't care much for battles over semantics; if people agree on what is actually happening in the WB, then whether to call it apartheid or not seems irrelevant to me. There are lots of differences from the situation in South Africa, and lots of similarities.

I think it's worth keeping in mind that Palestinians are not Israeli citizens, and ostensibly the leadership of the Palestinians, which has a limited government role over the WB, is aiming to become a separate state; those circumstances make it seem, to me, that wondering why Palestinians don't have the same rights as Israelis is a category error, like wondering why Mexicans don't have the same rights as Americans.

Then again, it's also worth keeping in mind that whatever the goals of the Palestinians, in some respects Israel does, in fact, have control over the people of the WB, so in practice there are real problems here.

Re: Israel launched a dozen attacks on UN troops in Lebanon, says leaked report

#283

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We can discuss American misadventures and horrible decisions in the aftermath of 9/11, but equating the U.S. military to Russia, which effectively has rape and torture as part of its doctrine, is more than a stretch. To be clear, I totally expected a comment like that, but I can guarantee you 1000% that no Ukrainians will be hanging on to Russian cargo plane wheels once they are booted out.

Guantanamo was and is a thing, there are literally handbooks on how to torture used by the American military. The American military also has a long, rich history of systemic sexual assault. Heck one of my friends was sexually assaulted by a service member to the point of hospitalization and he received no punishment or recourse. I also think reporting on Russian military by western media is largely propaganda, it’s h…

Well, you can't just show your cards THAT quickly. It's so hard to know! You can see the leveled cities from space, but "everything is possible and nothing is true". Okay.

Re: Israel launched a dozen attacks on UN troops in Lebanon, says leaked report

#284
post #78
post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Feel free to share your objections to what I wrote. Unfortunately, it is hard to discern legitimate interest vs. someone wanting to engage in a debate for the sake of it. And I am not interested in wasting my time figuring out which is the case.

I did not say or imply that I have objections to what you wrote. Your comment strongly implied that you think that Israel overreacted to Oct 7. So I am curious what you think their response should have been. > Unfortunately, it is hard to discern legitimate interest vs. someone wanting to engage in a debate for the sake of it. And I am not interested in wasting my time figuring out which is the case. Is curiosity "le…

>Your comment strongly implied that you think that Israel overreacted to Oct 7. So I am curious what you think their response should have been.

How about a reaction that wouldn't lead the ICC issuing arrest warrants for the government officials leading the response for crimes against humanity ?

I'm not sure what people act so daft, pretending the Israeli response of the last year was just a totally normal and standard military operation and not a clinical live streamed genocide.

Re: Israel launched a dozen attacks on UN troops in Lebanon, says leaked report

#285
post #166
post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe it's because social media has relayed the truth and Israel can no longer use its grip on western media to conceal its atrocities.

Maybe. Worth considering that in terms of relative size, Israel has a population of 10 million, Jews in the world number ~14 million. Whereas the Arab world, which tends to be relatively anti-Israel, numbers ~220 million. And Muslims, which tend to be anti-Israel as well, number 1.2 billion . So just in terms of number of voices, the natural pro-Israel voices [1] are vastly outnumbered by the natural anti-Israel voic…

I’ve always had a problem with this statistic. It is at best an irrelevant obfuscation of more plausible explanations, the most plausible—as well as simplest—being the one that your parent offered.

There are plenty of non-zionist Jews among those 10 million. A non significant number of are even anti-zionists (particularly in the USA). There is also plenty of non-jewish zionists. It wouldn’t surprise me actually if non-jewish zionists actually outnumber jewish zionists by a significant margin, maybe even an order of magnitute.

Then there is the deeply problematic aspect of assuming people’s politics based on their ethnicity. Yes there is a correlation, but correlation is not causation and offers no explaination. The 220 million Arabs and the 1.2 billion Muslims around the world probably have a similar opinion about Israel as most people around the world, I bet some of them—albeit a tiny minority—are even zionists.

Your footnote where you explained this does not offer justification. This is a misuse of statistics at best.

The simple explanation here is simply that people empathize with victims. Palestinians have been victims of colonialism for a long time, and are now victims of an ongoing genocide. The simple explanation here is that people follow the news and understand what is happening.

Re: Israel launched a dozen attacks on UN troops in Lebanon, says leaked report

#286
post #282

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sorry—I was focusing on bias in US media. (I live in the US) > As he himself said, he came into the topic biased against Israel, went to the West Bank to "study" the issue for 10 days only, chose not to talk to any Israeli at all to get any other side of the issue What is the other side of the issue? He and actually experts who study Israel call it apartheid. Is it not? If it is, is there a justification for implemen…

Some experts call it apartheid, most Israelis disagree (and Israel officially disagrees). [1] > If it is, is there a justification for implementing it? Or maybe I’m missing your point. Well, yes. That's exactly the other side of the issue, and is exactly what a real journalist talking about the Israel/Palestine situation should ideally explore. This is an HN comment, not exactly the place for the history of the relat…

Finding justifications for apartheid will only be an exercise in racism.

Apartheid is a crime against humanity, illegal under international law, and countries have an obligation to prevent apartheid policies from persisting.

Israel’s policies in the West Bank has been ruled to be an apartheid by the ICJ, and Israel has been ordered (non-binding though) to stop apartheid practices, reverse the damage and pay reparations.

Re: Israel launched a dozen attacks on UN troops in Lebanon, says leaked report

#287

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There were two separate offers made by Barak to Arafat in 2000 and by Olmert to Abu Mazen in 2008.

So kind of them to offer freedom, and sovereignty, both taken by themselves. What a moral high ground they have! Did they offer reparations too, for the ethnic cleansing in Jaffa, and Haifa, and numerous other villages and cities? I am sure they would even respawn the murdered Palestinian children.

[flagged]

Re: Israel launched a dozen attacks on UN troops in Lebanon, says leaked report

#288
post #166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe. Worth considering that in terms of relative size, Israel has a population of 10 million, Jews in the world number ~14 million. Whereas the Arab world, which tends to be relatively anti-Israel, numbers ~220 million. And Muslims, which tend to be anti-Israel as well, number 1.2 billion . So just in terms of number of voices, the natural pro-Israel voices [1] are vastly outnumbered by the natural anti-Israel voic…

I’ve always had a problem with this statistic. It is at best an irrelevant obfuscation of more plausible explanations, the most plausible—as well as simplest—being the one that your parent offered. There are plenty of non-zionist Jews among those 10 million. A non significant number of are even anti-zionists (particularly in the USA). There is also plenty of non-jewish zionists. It wouldn’t surprise me actually if no…

> I’ve always had a problem with this statistic. It is at best an irrelevant obfuscation of more plausible explanations, the most plausible—as well as simplest—being the one that your parent offered.

You think the world feels this way because of the "vast atrocities" committed by Israel.

The problem with this is that there are far, far worse atrocities all over the world, to which no one pays anywhere near this kind of attention. The Syrian civil war found 300,000 civilians killed, an order of magnitude more than in the Gaza war. Since WW2, there have been, I believe, 100 million refugees of ethnic cleansing worldwide. The Uyghurs in China being a recent example of persecution of an ethnic minority, allegedly far worse than anything Israel does.

And if apartheid is what we're talking about - worth mentioning that Palestinians have very few rights in almost every ME country that they are in.

Now let's be clear - I'm not trying to "whatboutism" here - how Palestinians are treated elsewhere, and the existence of other bad things, does not and should not absolve Israel of anything bad it is doing.

But if your belief is that the world thinks badly of Israel because of what it's doing specifically, but there are 100 things that are far worse by almost any metric happening all the time that few people pay attention to - I think you need to reevaluate the real reason here. If you think the UN putting out more resolutions against Israel than all other countries combined makes sense by the numbers - then you are just ignorant of what is happening all over the world.

Re: Israel launched a dozen attacks on UN troops in Lebanon, says leaked report

#289
post #282

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sorry—I was focusing on bias in US media. (I live in the US) > As he himself said, he came into the topic biased against Israel, went to the West Bank to "study" the issue for 10 days only, chose not to talk to any Israeli at all to get any other side of the issue What is the other side of the issue? He and actually experts who study Israel call it apartheid. Is it not? If it is, is there a justification for implemen…

Some experts call it apartheid, most Israelis disagree (and Israel officially disagrees). [1] > If it is, is there a justification for implementing it? Or maybe I’m missing your point. Well, yes. That's exactly the other side of the issue, and is exactly what a real journalist talking about the Israel/Palestine situation should ideally explore. This is an HN comment, not exactly the place for the history of the relat…

> Looking at a snapshot of the WB now is looking at the end result of worsening relations over many years

Including the Nakba?

Re: Israel launched a dozen attacks on UN troops in Lebanon, says leaked report

#290
post #47
post #20

Part of the story here, really, is that the UN has been co-opted by Hezbollah in Lebanon. Another part of the story is: where was the UN when Hezbollah launched rockets from Lebanon this week? Unless the UN starts doing serious counter-terrorism, Israel is not going to particularly care about their presence in Lebanon.

Hezbollah has launched over 10,000 rockets at Israel since Oct 7 last year. While under the watch of the UN. But apparently Israel is supposed to just do nothing about it and accept it going on for as long as Hezbollah likes. Absolutely no other country on this planet would. So many people seem to have a special set of double standards they apply to Israel for some reason.

Israel launched way more attacks agaibst Lebanon than hezbollah ever did.

https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/ace/standard/976/cpsprodpb/bfa9/liv...

Stop lying. You are comparing a paramilitary with an literally commiting a holocaust, with shaban Al-dalou as a clear example.

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2024/10/15/shaban-al-dalou-th...

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