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Israel launched a dozen attacks on UN troops in Lebanon, says leaked report

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Re: Israel launched a dozen attacks on UN troops in Lebanon, says leaked report

#171

Post by edanm »

jedimind wrote: post #83
tyleo wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

“You don’t get to shoot through human shields.” I don’t have a POV w.r.t. this conflict, but I’d like to understand what you mean by this statement generally. In the extreme it seems to imply, “if you have a human shield you are invincible.” It’s a messed-up calculus to have to make but I feel like there must be some middle ground.

the israeli "human shields" narrative is pure hasbara and israeli projection anyway "The Israeli military has used Palestinians as human shields in Gaza, soldier and former detainees say" [ https://edition.cnn.com/2024/10/24/middleeast/palestinians-h... ] "Over the years, the israeli military practiced an official policy of using Palestinians as human shields" [ https://www.btselem.org/topic/human_shields ] "Israel h…

> the israeli "human shields" narrative is pure hasbara and israeli projection anyway

Saying this is, frankly, ridiculous. There is massive, extensive documentation of the vast tunnel networks and terrorist infrastructure hiding beneath and as part of civilian areas in Gaza (and in Lebanon, now). There are hundreds if not thousands of examples of Hamas cynically using actions that are bound to hurt civilians.

You don't have to like Israel or how it's acting, and you disagree with the legitimacy of the war or how it is conducted, but you should at least be grounded in reality. If you're just wholesale denying the well-documented evidence of how Hamas acts, you're not really criticizing the IDF, because you're not connecting with reality. You're criticizing an imaginary IDF fighting an imaginary Hamas that acts completely differently to how it's acting, and that makes your criticisms meaningless.

(And for the record, the cases of the IDF using human shields in the manner you linked above are pretty well documented too, as far as I can say, and I personally think they should be condemned and the IDF has to answer for that. I do try to be centered in reality and see things as they really are.)

Re: Israel launched a dozen attacks on UN troops in Lebanon, says leaked report

#172

Post by adrian_b »

tzs wrote: post #78
Cyph0n wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Feel free to share your objections to what I wrote. Unfortunately, it is hard to discern legitimate interest vs. someone wanting to engage in a debate for the sake of it. And I am not interested in wasting my time figuring out which is the case.

I did not say or imply that I have objections to what you wrote. Your comment strongly implied that you think that Israel overreacted to Oct 7. So I am curious what you think their response should have been. > Unfortunately, it is hard to discern legitimate interest vs. someone wanting to engage in a debate for the sake of it. And I am not interested in wasting my time figuring out which is the case. Is curiosity "le…

Israel has not overreacted to Oct 7, they have just applied the same policy that they have used for many decades "at least ten of theirs for each one of ours".

This policy is an effective deterrent against enemies, but it should be obvious that with such a policy it will never be possible to end any conflict unless absolutely all enemies and all their relatives or friends are killed.

There have been times when the relations between the parties in this conflict had improved a lot and there was some hope for a peaceful resolution of the conflict. Nevertheless on both sides, but especially in Israel, there are people who benefit a lot from the existence of the conflict, so any opponents have been removed by any means possible, including assassination, until the mutual relationships have become as bad as today, when no hope for any kind of peace remains.

Most people in Israel are quite nice, but they are deeply scared by the thought that that at any time someone coming from the neighbors of Israel could come and cut their throats, so they work continuously very hard at their jobs, believing that they must provide thus their individual contributions so that Israel will maintain its military and economic dominance over their enemies, in order to ensure their safety. The workers of Israel have worked all the time since WWII pretty much as hard as those of USA during its short participation to WWII.

Workers from other countries would be very unlikely to work willingly so hard as those of Israel. This is very profitable for the upper class of Israel, for whom an end of the conflict would have caused serious losses, when the workers could not have been motivated any more by patriotic slogans.

Re: Israel launched a dozen attacks on UN troops in Lebanon, says leaked report

#173

Post by hbt »

edanm wrote: post #166
cutler wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe it's because social media has relayed the truth and Israel can no longer use its grip on western media to conceal its atrocities.

Maybe. Worth considering that in terms of relative size, Israel has a population of 10 million, Jews in the world number ~14 million. Whereas the Arab world, which tends to be relatively anti-Israel, numbers ~220 million. And Muslims, which tend to be anti-Israel as well, number 1.2 billion . So just in terms of number of voices, the natural pro-Israel voices [1] are vastly outnumbered by the natural anti-Israel voic…

Though global populations show a larger anti-Israel sentiment, Western media and internet forums don't reflect this balance.

Western media often aligns with Israeli perspectives due to strategic alliances, lobbying influence, and media ownership dynamics, framing Israel’s actions as defensive while sidelining broader Arab or Palestinian views.

Online, pro-Israel narratives are reinforced by organized digital campaigns and moderation practices that shape public discourse. Meanwhile, pro-Palestinian voices lack comparable resources and organization in Western spaces, limiting their visibility. This creates a media and digital environment where Western audiences are exposed to narratives that don’t fully represent the global spectrum of perspectives.

Re: Israel launched a dozen attacks on UN troops in Lebanon, says leaked report

#174

Post by edanm »

r00fus wrote: post #69
Sabinus wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

Israel is always accusing people of what Israel itself does already. Tons of Israeli military bases and weapons manufacturing his placed directly under or very close to civilian domiciles.

> Tons of Israeli military bases and weapons manufacturing his placed directly under or very close to civilian domiciles.

This is nonsense propaganda that keeps getting repeated.

Israel has some army bases in or close to civilian areas, as do most countries - e.g. the Pentagon. The reason is that some army bases are used for intelligence, software development or other administrative tasks, which usually involves older officers and many civilians, so it makes sense to have these be in cities.

But note key differences between this and what Hamas is accused of doing:

1. These are administrative buildings. These are not weapons storage facilities, combat factilities, etc. And it's especially not where missile launch sites or things of a similar nature are located.

Shooting missiles from within houses, as e.g. Hezbollah does, or from under refugee camps, as Hamas does, is a different thing entirely - because to stop the actual rockets being shot at Israel, Israel has to shoot at them, which kills civilians. That is not what Israel does with those bases.

2. Israeli bases are not built under civilian buildings. Yes, the same army HQ or intelligence etc bases that are built in cities have sections underground, for obvious reasons - but under the bases, not under people's houses!

Re: Israel launched a dozen attacks on UN troops in Lebanon, says leaked report

#175

Post by edanm »

mlazos wrote: post #14
pimpampum wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Israel has lied repeatedly countless times, like the tunnels under hospitals that never show up, or when they say the didn't kill the journalists they did end up admitting to. Or the claims of rape and beheaded babies that were all fake. You can not take anything they say as serious.

I love how their rationale for blowing up a hospital is that there were tunnels underneath it. As if that’s justification for blowing up a hospital.

Israel hasn't blown up a hospital.

Re: Israel launched a dozen attacks on UN troops in Lebanon, says leaked report

#176

Post by nujabe »

weatherlite wrote: post #170
nujabe wrote: post #167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Vietnam and Iraq are two nation states and had populations between 25-30m at the time US waged war in those countries. Gaza is a narrow strip of 139 square miles of land with 2mn people packed together like sardines, who have no sovereignty, have been under an economic blockade since 2007, and whose rulers Hamas have no conventional military to speak of. These two are not comparable, I don't know why people keep poin…

Why does the land area matter? Israel is also a tiny and crowded country and is threatened from all fronts. What was the threat against the U.S again , was Vietnam about to invade? was Iraq? Hamas had enough weapons to kill 1200 Israelis in one day so it's not some helpless entity. It was armed to its teeth. It's only after almost 800 additional dead Israeli soldiers and a very bloody war that Hamas lost most of its…

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Re: Israel launched a dozen attacks on UN troops in Lebanon, says leaked report

#177

Post by invalidname »

throwaway920333 wrote: post #155
invalidname wrote: post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is often repeated but is historically VERY incorrect. Yes, Israel does lobbying in the states and does influence (like every other country). The current Israeli government is indeed terrible and blatant at that. However, Israel left Gaza in 2005 with no deal as part of US pressure (which led to the current situation). Israel offered a Palestinians a country which included east Jerusalem twice based on US pressur…

Israel never left Gaza. They surrounded it. They controlled the entire land border and didn't let ships sail or planes take off from Gaza. It's as if, after a prison riot, all of the guards just said fuck 'em and decamped to a perimeter around the prison with machine guns with orders to shoot to kill. Gaza is way too small and densely populated to be remotely self-sufficient. Now, just to short-circuit the reply chai…

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Re: Israel launched a dozen attacks on UN troops in Lebanon, says leaked report

#178

Post by weatherlite »

nujabe wrote: post #176
weatherlite wrote: post #170

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why does the land area matter? Israel is also a tiny and crowded country and is threatened from all fronts. What was the threat against the U.S again , was Vietnam about to invade? was Iraq? Hamas had enough weapons to kill 1200 Israelis in one day so it's not some helpless entity. It was armed to its teeth. It's only after almost 800 additional dead Israeli soldiers and a very bloody war that Hamas lost most of its…

[flagged]

[flagged]

Re: Israel launched a dozen attacks on UN troops in Lebanon, says leaked report

#179

Post by dzhiurgis »

okokhacker wrote: post #85

HN posts about this used to be 99% Pro-Zionist. There’s been a marked shift in opinion (or less bots) and I’m very, very glad that people are recognising the extent of war crimes being committed by Israel.

Is there actual evidence than hearsay?

Cameras are everywhere. It should be trivial to prove these claims.

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