Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Israel launched a dozen attacks on UN troops in Lebanon, says leaked report

ft.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

81–90 of 337 posts

Re: Israel launched a dozen attacks on UN troops in Lebanon, says leaked report

#81

Post by wbl »

dragonwriter wrote: post #16
NomDePlum wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's absolutely no evidence of UN forces being used as human shields. There's clear evidence, including that cited in the article, of the situation being very different from the claims/report of the IDF. The most credible reason for Israel wanting Unfil to vacate is less impartial observers.

The most credible reason for Israel to want UNIFIL to vacate is that UNIFIL’s mission is to help keep unauthorized military forces out of South Lebanon, and Israel’s invasion force is decidedly unauthorized.

So Hamas is authorized?

Re: Israel launched a dozen attacks on UN troops in Lebanon, says leaked report

#82

Post by 7thpower »

nimbius wrote: post #40
Qem wrote: post #7

At this point the country should be suspended from UN, like Apartheid SA was before, in 1974. See https://www.nytimes.com/1974/11/13/archives/south-africa-is-...

In 1986, then-U.S. Sen. Joe Biden said, “Supporting Israel is the best $3 billion investment we make. Were there not an Israel, the United States of America would have to invent an Israel to protect her interests in the region.” Israel is a satellite state of the US in all but name. You'd have a better shot at dissolving the UN entirely than suspending Israel. What ive always wondered is why the US hasn't put Israel…

Israel has far more influence in the US than the US does in Israel.

It is very clear that the current administration is backed into a corner and trying to make the best of the situation.

FWIW: This is not a knock against the current administration.

Re: Israel launched a dozen attacks on UN troops in Lebanon, says leaked report

#83

Post by jedimind »

tyleo wrote: post #29
sterlind wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unifil has been there since the '70s, apparently. Their role was to monitor Israel's withdrawal and to assist the Lebanese government, to patrol the Blue Line and various humanitarian tasks. They're not a counterinsurgency force or an occupying army - as I understand it, they're a tripwire for treaty enforcement. Also, you don't get to shoot through human shields. It's still immoral to kill noncombatants, just as it'…

“You don’t get to shoot through human shields.” I don’t have a POV w.r.t. this conflict, but I’d like to understand what you mean by this statement generally. In the extreme it seems to imply, “if you have a human shield you are invincible.” It’s a messed-up calculus to have to make but I feel like there must be some middle ground.

the israeli "human shields" narrative is pure hasbara and israeli projection anyway

"The Israeli military has used Palestinians as human shields in Gaza, soldier and former detainees say" [https://edition.cnn.com/2024/10/24/middleeast/palestinians-h...]

"Over the years, the israeli military practiced an official policy of using Palestinians as human shields" [https://www.btselem.org/topic/human_shields]

"Israel has taken human shields to a whole new criminal level" [https://www.aljazeera.com/opinions/2024/10/20/israel-has-tak...]

Re: Israel launched a dozen attacks on UN troops in Lebanon, says leaked report

#84

Post by freehorse »

sterlind wrote: post #39
tyleo wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

“You don’t get to shoot through human shields.” I don’t have a POV w.r.t. this conflict, but I’d like to understand what you mean by this statement generally. In the extreme it seems to imply, “if you have a human shield you are invincible.” It’s a messed-up calculus to have to make but I feel like there must be some middle ground.

My view is the ethnicity of the human shields in question shouldn't factor into your decision making. You shouldn't shoot through an Egyptian aid worker or Lebanese child if you wouldn't have shot through an Israeli hostage in their place.

> you wouldn't have shot through an Israeli hostage in their place

Well actually, to give Israel some kind of credit, they have also done that, as hostages have indeed been killed in their attacks. In general they have shown a similar disregard of human life towards their own people who have been hostages, so there's that.

Re: Israel launched a dozen attacks on UN troops in Lebanon, says leaked report

#86

Post by SauciestGNU »

zajio1am wrote: post #28
dragonwriter wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The most credible reason for Israel to want UNIFIL to vacate is that UNIFIL’s mission is to help keep unauthorized military forces out of South Lebanon, and Israel’s invasion force is decidedly unauthorized.

Well, UNIFIL for the last twenty years pretty much ignored the other unauthorized military force in southern Lebanon, Hezbollah, so why they should care about IDF?

Hezbollah is part of the elected government within the in internationally recognized borders of Lebanon. It might be illegal for them to fire at Israel, but it's not illegal for them to be present. It is illegal for Israel to be present within Lebanon's borders.

Re: Israel launched a dozen attacks on UN troops in Lebanon, says leaked report

#87

Post by flappyeagle »

ycomb-acct wrote: post #48
nimbius wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In 1986, then-U.S. Sen. Joe Biden said, “Supporting Israel is the best $3 billion investment we make. Were there not an Israel, the United States of America would have to invent an Israel to protect her interests in the region.” Israel is a satellite state of the US in all but name. You'd have a better shot at dissolving the UN entirely than suspending Israel. What ive always wondered is why the US hasn't put Israel…

[flagged]

There are no Israelis in the cabinet as far as I know. Are you saying that Jewish Americans are secretly agents for Israel?

Re: Israel launched a dozen attacks on UN troops in Lebanon, says leaked report

#89

Post by juopiig »

tyleo wrote: post #29
sterlind wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unifil has been there since the '70s, apparently. Their role was to monitor Israel's withdrawal and to assist the Lebanese government, to patrol the Blue Line and various humanitarian tasks. They're not a counterinsurgency force or an occupying army - as I understand it, they're a tripwire for treaty enforcement. Also, you don't get to shoot through human shields. It's still immoral to kill noncombatants, just as it'…

“You don’t get to shoot through human shields.” I don’t have a POV w.r.t. this conflict, but I’d like to understand what you mean by this statement generally. In the extreme it seems to imply, “if you have a human shield you are invincible.” It’s a messed-up calculus to have to make but I feel like there must be some middle ground.

Take a step back and observe you've erected a mental block for yourself. We've got a false dichotomy here - either we shoot through human shields or we do nothing.

If there are insurgents among civilians, they either have logistics and communication networks to conduct operations, or they're unable to operate effectively. Weapons do not materialize from nowhere, they must be smuggled into the country and distributed. Operations do not materialize from nowhere, they must be coordinated.

If they have logistics, we can leverage that against them. We saw this when Israel expected their pager attack. They've already proven that they can exercise their creativity to conduct effective attacks with great precision.

If they lack logistics and communication networks - then they can't conduct effective operations against us. There's little to fear and no reason to shoot through human shields.

This is some armchair strategy a nonexpert came up with on the spot. Consider that real military strategists and intelligence agencies are better at coming up with ways to find and kill their enemies than we are.

Do not accept that these people cannot solve these problems without bulldozing through human shields. Do not accept the notion that a powerful military and intelligence apparatus is helpless. They could prosecute this war differently. They have made a choice not to.

Re: Israel launched a dozen attacks on UN troops in Lebanon, says leaked report

#90

Post by rendall »

sangnoir wrote: post #71
rendall wrote: post #54

Israel has a pretty compelling argument. I wish the article had mentioned it. That they did not leads me to believe the article is biased. The argument goes like this: UNIFIL had one mission, which was to disarm and disband any military force in Lebanon south of the Litani River that was not Lebanon's army. UNIFIL has not done this. This is known and well-documented. Hezbollah regularly fires rockets and missiles int…

> UNIFIL has not done this. ...and therefore they deserve to be shot at, maimed or killed?

>> UNIFIL has not done this.

>...and therefore they deserve to be shot at, maimed or killed?

You quoted the wrong part. Here, let me fix that for you.

>> If true, this is not only a clear, systemic failure of their mission, but such an egregious failure that their presence is actually dangerous to civilians.

>...and therefore they deserve to be shot at, maimed or killed?

There. That's better. Now I can properly answer.

In my opinion, no, of course not. However, in light of their failure to accomplish their mission, and actually hindering peace, Israel asked them to leave. They did not. They have chosen to remain in an active war zone. So, "deserve" doesn't really come into play.

Post reply on HN