How Israel’s bulky pager fooled Hezbollah

I agree that it's hard to get a firm grasp on the "Palestinians" demand. It's hard to get a firm grasp on what "Americans" demand of their government, and as we see every election cycle, there are pretty conflicting demands in a polarized country.

That said, the official representative of the Palestinians did have a chance to negotiate with the Israelis, received a generous offer according to Israelis and many outsider observers, and said no - walked away without a counteroffer.

The standard Israeli feeling is that there simply is no practical way to reach a negotiated peace because of this, especially since Palestinian representatives since that time have less political will and "moral authority" among Palestinians.

(And of course something that Israelis often miss is that Israel has spent 15+ years actively working against peace, so the lack of Palestinian leaders at this stage is at least partially because of Israel!)

> A two-state solution is a fever dream if the occupier is uninterested in it. We’ve seen that repeatedly for the past 75+ years in actions and literal words.

First, the Palestinian territories have not been under occupation for 75 years.

Second, there was a real effort at arriving at a two state solution made by Israel. It's often debated who is "at fault" for no solution having been reached, but without rehashing it - I think it's simply false to say that "the occupier is uninterested in a two-state solution. Not when Israelis elected politicians multiple times over 15 years to seek such a solution, not when Israeli politicians multiple time reached compromises with the Palestinians.

Btw, I think both sides often claim, falsely, that the other side is incapable of compromise - I think it's important to keep pointing out that this is false and that actual meaningful steps towards peace have been achieved. Especially outsiders should be looking at this broad perspective, and not play up the "one side is inherently unreasonable" argument, which is never true.

FYI I disagree that this necessarily means that in Gaza.

Israel has spent 18 years fairly convinced that Hamas isn't a major threat and that Hezbollah is, so most resources were spent on preparing for war with Hezbollah. This is maybe even mostly correct.

That means Israel was far more prepared to attack Hezbollah, and it shows.

If the US were ever attacked by Russia, it has battle plans in place. If it were attacked by Argentina, I don't think it has nearly as many plans/assets/intelligence/etc. So a counterattack on Argentina would have to look very different.

(Though of course this mostly explains the initial response, and as you say, is far less convincing one year in!)

> I don't approve of Hezbollah or Hamas; but if you strip away the violence and Islamic extremism and all of that then the uncomfortable reality is ... they're not wrong in their core objections. Israel has consistently maintained that no, actually, the core problem is that Hezbollah and Hamas exist, and once we get rid of these people all the problems will be gone.

Let me offer you a counter-perspective on this. Israel and the PA actually worked to achieve peace - beginning with the Oslo accords that officially recognized the PA as the representative of the Palestinian people, and in which they officially recognized Israel on the '67 borders.

There followed a more than a decade of attempts at reaching an agreement for a two-state solution, which would have ended Israel's settlements and given the Palestinians what they ostensibly want.

Except this isn't the core objective of Hamas and Hezbollah. Their core objective has always been to eliminate Israel entirely. Which is why Hamas helped stop the very peace agreements which could've led to a two-state solution, by starting a wave of terror attacks. It's unclear to what extent the PA itself was involved, but Hamas was absolutely involved, and their stated goal was to not achieve peace, but rather scuttle any peace so that the fight could be a fight to the death of Israel, instead.

(And of course, Israeli extremists were working on the Israeli side to stop the peace process, with much fewer attacks and far less success, except for the one terrible blow they did manage to dish out - assassinating the Prime Minister that would've most likely been able to get a peace deal done!)

That is the sense in which many Israelis feel like - yeah, if Israel destroys the group that is actively seeking to disrupt peace and working towards Israel's destruction - we can actually negotiate with the reasonable people that are left. (I don't think this is correct or Netanyahu's full motivations, but it's not completely wrong, either.)

> Israel must resolve the settlement issue first, and THEN we can dismantle the violent extremist groups (which will take time and won't happen overnight – there will be a "Real Hamas" splinter group just as there was a "Real IRA"). This is the only way peace can happen.

Israelis believe that without those settlements, a far more massive attack would happen.

And they are probably right! Israel remvoed the settlements from Gaza, removed all military presence from Gaza, and the Gazans elected Hamas, which took over the Gaza strip (killing all PA members), then spent 15 years shooting rockets at Israel continuously, and spent billions of dollars of aid that was supposed to help Palestinians on, instead, building up towards the October 7th attack.

You're effectively saying to Israelis "if you want peace, just try to repeat this, except on a far more massive scale in the West Bank", and to trust that somehow, this won't turn out exactly the same as in Gaza. Israelis have good reason to mistrust this idea!

(For the record, I do think there are good counterarguments against this, and I am very much against the settlements, as are many Israelis. But the concerns I outline are real, legitimate concerns, and they have to be addressed or at least, understood.)

> It is not a colonist by any standard definition.

Yes they are. It's true that before the British Mandate of Palestine the population of Syria Palaestina was 3-11% Jewish (Mizrahi Jews) but most of the Jewish population of Israel is not indigenous to that region of the world (like how the Ashkenazi Jews are from Europe and Eastern Russia).

> Apartheid - more complicated.

It isn't, Amnesty International and the Human Rights Watch recognize it is Apartheid. As do Ireland and South Africa (countries who have both been victim to Colonist Apartheid violence).

Israel does not allow free passage between Gaza and the West Bank, that in itself is a war crime. Israel literally has a two tiered society, Israeli Arabs do not have the Right To Return like Jewish Israelis do. 50% of Arab Israelis are under the poverty line because of wage discrimination and other factors https://adva.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/03/SocialReport2016... . Israel was even caught practicing eugenics on the beta Israelis.

> Israel should dissolve, and...? What's the next part of the sentence for what happens to the 9 million Israelis?

What are you filling in the blank with...? Nobody is asking for them to be deported. I mean obviously people like Yaakov Fauci would have to give back the houses they literally stole but a "1 state solution" does not require the deportation/killing of the Israelis. Elsewhere in this thread I linked the Oslo Accords, I suggest you read about them, peace is possible.