How Israel’s bulky pager fooled Hezbollah • Hacker News Board

Re: How Israel’s bulky pager fooled Hezbollah

#151

Post by hmcq6 » Thu, Oct 17, 2024, 5:34 AM UTC

tptacek wrote: post #116

arp242 wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I really don't think moral struggles or the definition of "terrorism" is at all illuminating in this conflict Yes, I fully agree. To be blunt, it's boring semantic wank. No one is here is an angel. Everyone has serious legitimate grievances and no one is smelling of roses. This should be obvious to anyone who isn't a hyper-partisan. But that doesn't mean we can't say all of this could have been avoided if Israel ha…

It just doesn't mean anything. I disagree with you about Hezbollah's motives, but that's besides the point. No country in the world could ignore militarily what Hezbollah has done over the last year. To call the missile attacks an act of war would be to understate dramatically the campaign they've undertaken. You can believe Hezbollah's motives were pure and their campaign fully justified. Israel was still going to s…

> No country in the world could ignore militarily what Hezbollah has done over the last year.

You realize Israel has been invading Lebanon since the 60's right?

Lebanon has the right to fight back against a sovereign nation who is occupying their land. General Assembly resolution A/RES/38/17 (22/11/1983)

Re: How Israel’s bulky pager fooled Hezbollah

#152

Post by hmcq6 » Thu, Oct 17, 2024, 5:39 AM UTC

jjfoooo4 wrote: post #131

arp242 wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I really don't think moral struggles or the definition of "terrorism" is at all illuminating in this conflict Yes, I fully agree. To be blunt, it's boring semantic wank. No one is here is an angel. Everyone has serious legitimate grievances and no one is smelling of roses. This should be obvious to anyone who isn't a hyper-partisan. But that doesn't mean we can't say all of this could have been avoided if Israel ha…

Is there really cause to believe a peaceful compromise would have been possible even without the settlements? Has there been any period where the borders between Israel and its neighbors have been peacefully respected by both sides?

> Has there been any period where the borders between Israel and its neighbors have been peacefully respected by both sides?

The Oslo Accords, but right wing Israelis assassinated their own PM to prevent a peace deal.

https://history.state.gov/milestones/1993-2000/oslo#:~:text=....

Re: How Israel’s bulky pager fooled Hezbollah

#153

Post by tptacek » Thu, Oct 17, 2024, 5:43 AM UTC

hmcq6 wrote: post #151

tptacek wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It just doesn't mean anything. I disagree with you about Hezbollah's motives, but that's besides the point. No country in the world could ignore militarily what Hezbollah has done over the last year. To call the missile attacks an act of war would be to understate dramatically the campaign they've undertaken. You can believe Hezbollah's motives were pure and their campaign fully justified. Israel was still going to s…

> No country in the world could ignore militarily what Hezbollah has done over the last year. You realize Israel has been invading Lebanon since the 60's right? Lebanon has the right to fight back against a sovereign nation who is occupying their land. General Assembly resolution A/RES/38/17 (22/11/1983)

I don't care about the moralizing in either direction. I don't care that Israel believes Hezbollah is a terrorist organization, I don't care that Hezbollah believes Israel is an illegitimate occupier. I don't care if Hezbollah felt justified in indiscriminately lobbing rockets at northern Israel. I don't care because it doesn't matter. They struck, Israel responded; they are near-peer military adversaries, and they are at war.

This to me just illustrates the futility of advocating for a "right to fight back" or a "right to resist". There is no such thing as a right to military strikes without counterattacks. Wouldn't it be wild if there were? If some adjudicator could just decide, you're in the right, they're in the wrong, you can fire thousands of rockets, they just have to sit there and take it? In reality, however, if you launch a large scale military offensive at a capable adversary, you're going to get hit back.

Re: How Israel’s bulky pager fooled Hezbollah

#154

Post by hmcq6 » Thu, Oct 17, 2024, 6:04 AM UTC

tptacek wrote: post #153

hmcq6 wrote: post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> No country in the world could ignore militarily what Hezbollah has done over the last year. You realize Israel has been invading Lebanon since the 60's right? Lebanon has the right to fight back against a sovereign nation who is occupying their land. General Assembly resolution A/RES/38/17 (22/11/1983)

I don't care about the moralizing in either direction. I don't care that Israel believes Hezbollah is a terrorist organization, I don't care that Hezbollah believes Israel is an illegitimate occupier. I don't care if Hezbollah felt justified in indiscriminately lobbing rockets at northern Israel. I don't care because it doesn't matter. They struck, Israel responded; they are near-peer military adversaries, and they a…

> There is no such thing as a right to military strikes without counterattacks.

I'm not "moralizing" I'm citing the UN, and nobody is saying that ^

Israel is a colonist apartheid. It doesn't have a right to occupy Palestine and Palestine does have the right to fight back.

It's not that Palestine can bomb and Israel can't, it's that Israel must dissolve. Israel has neither the right to bomb nor the right to exist. Palestine shouldn't use violence to make Israel dissolve but they have the right to.

Re: How Israel’s bulky pager fooled Hezbollah

#155

Post by tptacek » Thu, Oct 17, 2024, 6:15 AM UTC

hmcq6 wrote: post #154

tptacek wrote: post #153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't care about the moralizing in either direction. I don't care that Israel believes Hezbollah is a terrorist organization, I don't care that Hezbollah believes Israel is an illegitimate occupier. I don't care if Hezbollah felt justified in indiscriminately lobbing rockets at northern Israel. I don't care because it doesn't matter. They struck, Israel responded; they are near-peer military adversaries, and they a…

> There is no such thing as a right to military strikes without counterattacks. I'm not "moralizing" I'm citing the UN, and nobody is saying that ^ Israel is a colonist apartheid. It doesn't have a right to occupy Palestine and Palestine does have the right to fight back. It's not that Palestine can bomb and Israel can't, it's that Israel must dissolve. Israel has neither the right to bomb nor the right to exist. Pal…

Israel is not going to dissolve. They're 9 million people with a hypercapable, nuclear-armed military.

Re: How Israel’s bulky pager fooled Hezbollah

#156

Post by raxxorraxor » Thu, Oct 17, 2024, 7:06 AM UTC

arp242 wrote: post #85

tptacek wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

These takes are problematic because it's clear to most observers that the attacks were, by the standards set by ground combat in Fallujah, NATO air operations in Kunar Province, or operations against ISIL in Inherent Resolve, the pager/radio attacks were drastically more discriminating, and caused a tiny fraction of the noncombatant casualties. This, of course, is also a distorted standard capturing only NATO/aligned…

I think the bit that this misses is that the root of all the problems we've seen over the last few decades is that Israel keeps doing their settlement thing. In spite of decades of pretty much the entire rest of the world – including the US – saying they should not be doing that. I don't approve of Hezbollah or Hamas; but if you strip away the violence and Islamic extremism and all of that then the uncomfortable real…

This had nothing to do with the westbank and yes, Israel has a problem with extremism and illegal settlements. But that isn't the topic here.

Hezbollah has started its war against Israel and the pager attack was an efficient way to retaliate and cripple Hezbollah command. There is no justification for Hezbollah to attack Israel with missiles.

I don't really understand why their attack on Hezbollah logistics is even in question. Israel has to use all their capabilities to respond to these attacks.

Re: How Israel’s bulky pager fooled Hezbollah

#157

Post by edanm » Thu, Oct 17, 2024, 7:09 AM UTC

hmcq6 wrote: post #154

tptacek wrote: post #153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't care about the moralizing in either direction. I don't care that Israel believes Hezbollah is a terrorist organization, I don't care that Hezbollah believes Israel is an illegitimate occupier. I don't care if Hezbollah felt justified in indiscriminately lobbing rockets at northern Israel. I don't care because it doesn't matter. They struck, Israel responded; they are near-peer military adversaries, and they a…

> There is no such thing as a right to military strikes without counterattacks. I'm not "moralizing" I'm citing the UN, and nobody is saying that ^ Israel is a colonist apartheid. It doesn't have a right to occupy Palestine and Palestine does have the right to fight back. It's not that Palestine can bomb and Israel can't, it's that Israel must dissolve. Israel has neither the right to bomb nor the right to exist. Pal…

> Israel is a colonist apartheid.

It is not a colonist by any standard definition.

Apartheid - more complicated. Many people dispute this. I think it's plausible to make a case that there is an apartheid in the West Bank, though it's not completely obvious (mostly because the people there don't want to be under Israeli rule, they want their own government).

> It's not that Palestine can bomb and Israel can't, it's that Israel must dissolve. Israel has neither the right to bomb nor the right to exist. Palestine shouldn't use violence to make Israel dissolve but they have the right to.

Israel should dissolve, and...? What's the next part of the sentence for what happens to the 9 million Israelis? What's the next step for people who are second, third and foruth-generation Israelis and have only known Israel as their home?

What's the implication of deciding that a state recognized worldwide and part of the UN must dissolve? What about the other dozens of states since then, must they also dissolve?

Re: How Israel’s bulky pager fooled Hezbollah

#158

Post by edanm » Thu, Oct 17, 2024, 7:10 AM UTC

tptacek wrote: post #133

jjfoooo4 wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is there really cause to believe a peaceful compromise would have been possible even without the settlements? Has there been any period where the borders between Israel and its neighbors have been peacefully respected by both sides?

Israel's two largest borders are with Egypt and Jordan, both of which it has shared peaceful relations with for decades. It shares a complicated border with Syria, where it has for more decades held a salient into Syrian sovereign territory (the Golan), but until recently there has been little military activity involving it. It's the Lebanese border where all the action is at.

(And the "border" with the West Bank and Gaza.)

Re: How Israel’s bulky pager fooled Hezbollah

#159

Post by edanm » Thu, Oct 17, 2024, 7:17 AM UTC

hmcq6 wrote: post #152

jjfoooo4 wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is there really cause to believe a peaceful compromise would have been possible even without the settlements? Has there been any period where the borders between Israel and its neighbors have been peacefully respected by both sides?

> Has there been any period where the borders between Israel and its neighbors have been peacefully respected by both sides? The Oslo Accords, but right wing Israelis assassinated their own PM to prevent a peace deal. https://history.state.gov/milestones/1993-2000/oslo#:~:text=... .

That's a misleadingly small part of the story of why there's no peace today.

Israeli went on to elect multiple other PMs to continue working towards a peace deal. Rabin was assassinated in 1995, but Barak met with Araft in 2000, 2001, Olmert was trying to make a deal all the way up to 2007. And in the meantime, famous military hawk Sharon actually withdrew all settlements and military presence from Gaza, supposedly giving them what they wanted - no more settlements.

What actually happened is that a result of the Oslo accords, while yes, one right-wing extremist killed Rabin (and another right-wing extremist committed a disgusting terror attack on Palestinians) - the Palestinians started a massive wave of terror attacks, probably spearheaded by Hamas with the express purpose of scuttling the peace process.

Re: How Israel’s bulky pager fooled Hezbollah

#160

Post by edanm » Thu, Oct 17, 2024, 7:20 AM UTC

bdjsiqoocwk wrote: post #127

tptacek wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, Hezbollah has not behaved "entirely rational and predictable". They have indiscriminately fired rockets at civilian populations in northern Israel, often over a hundred in a single day, averaging dozens every day continuously for almost a year, killing principally (as you'd expect) civilians (ironically, many of them not Israeli Jewish citizens), in one case including half a youth football team.

If "team A did bad thing X" is an argument for anything, could I counter that team B did X too, and more? You're complaining that Hezbollah kills civilians... So does the IDF. Now if you tell me that one is intentional and the other one isn't the I know you're not being honest, because there's plenty of evidence that the IDF is really casual about collateral damage.

> Now if you tell me that one is intentional and the other one isn't the I know you're not being honest, because there's plenty of evidence that the IDF is really casual about collateral damage.

Casual about collateral damage and purposefully targeting civilians are different things.