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Christopher Columbus may have been Spanish and Jewish, documentary says

theguardian.com

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Re: Christopher Columbus may have been Spanish and Jewish, documentary says

#311

Post by dumbo-octopus »

jjk166 wrote: post #299
dumbo-octopus wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Scientists have no right to declare what does and does not exist based on what their machines are able to detect. Did gravity not exist before the LHC was constructed and the Higgs data analyzed? Jewish DNA is that which has descended from Abraham, through Isaac, to Jacob and the Jewish nation. Gravity is an attraction between masses. These things exist – regardless of your machines’ proclivities.

If you personally are a direct descendant of Abraham, or any other specific individual who lived approximately 3000 years ago, statistically you do not carry any DNA from that ancestor. While there are some nuances relating to differences in how the different sexes pass on their genes, as a rough approximation you carry half the base pairs of each of your parents, who each carry roughly half from their parents, and s…

So by that logic nobody has any DNA in common with neanderthals, right? Try again. You’re missing a big, big, gotcha.

Re: Christopher Columbus may have been Spanish and Jewish, documentary says

#312

Post by juunpp »

lolinder wrote: post #218
juunpp wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You kind of cherry-picked two paragraphs and butchered the article. The article's point is that Reconquista, with capital R, is not a good designation for the historical events that took place. It does use the term throughout the article, though, which maybe is a bit confusing. But if you read a couple paragraphs past the one you quoted, you'll see it restated that the term Reconquista is a 20th century invention. "T…

You're ignoring what I actually said about the quotes—I read all of that and I don't care when the term originated, that's pointless pedantry. The medieval kings thought of themselves as reconquering, so reconquista is a decent word to describe what they thought they were doing, regardless of its origins.

And you're disregarding the entire point of the article and the historians that contradict what you just said.

Re: Christopher Columbus may have been Spanish and Jewish, documentary says

#313

Post by juunpp »

kajecounterhack wrote: post #273
juunpp wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know that Columbus was genocidal. He was a slaver, rapist, murderer, gold digger and all-round motherfucker for sure, so much so that the Spanish monarchy sent an envoy to arrest him, bring him back to Spain to be tried, and threw him in jail I think for a couple years. Aside from gold and spices sent from him back to the Spanish monarchs after his first arrival, he also sent back slaves and the queen was, pr…

def genocidal: relating to or involving the deliberate killing of a large number of people from a particular nation or ethnic group with the aim of destroying that nation or group. Pedantic to say that Columbus subjugating entire people groups with mass murder doesn't qualify here. The manpower skew was huge, so how exactly did they subjugate the Tainos without genocide? 7M tainos died when all was said and done.

7M tainos by the hand of Columbus and his crew?

I don't question that what the Spanish accomplished was a massacre. I just question whether that can be attributed to Columbus himself. He did 3 trips to the Americas, none of which lasted very long:

1st Voyage - 1492-1493

2nd Voyage - 1493-1496

3rd Voyage - 1498-1500

Re: Christopher Columbus may have been Spanish and Jewish, documentary says

#314

Post by juunpp »

corpMaverick wrote: post #244
juunpp wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know that Columbus was genocidal. He was a slaver, rapist, murderer, gold digger and all-round motherfucker for sure, so much so that the Spanish monarchy sent an envoy to arrest him, bring him back to Spain to be tried, and threw him in jail I think for a couple years. Aside from gold and spices sent from him back to the Spanish monarchs after his first arrival, he also sent back slaves and the queen was, pr…

Cortez only had about 500 soldiers. He didn't even had the permission of the Spanish crown, it was a private enterprise. How did he conquered a city of warriors with a population of 300K ? The Aztecs were tyrants that had abused their neighboring states for decades. Cortez built alliances with Tlaxalans and other tribes. There were battles, a small pox epidemic and a lot of blood. But Cortez was overall a great diplo…

Thanks for adding.

Re: Christopher Columbus may have been Spanish and Jewish, documentary says

#315

Post by dumbo-octopus »

dumbo-octopus wrote: post #311
jjk166 wrote: post #299

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you personally are a direct descendant of Abraham, or any other specific individual who lived approximately 3000 years ago, statistically you do not carry any DNA from that ancestor. While there are some nuances relating to differences in how the different sexes pass on their genes, as a rough approximation you carry half the base pairs of each of your parents, who each carry roughly half from their parents, and s…

So by that logic nobody has any DNA in common with neanderthals, right? Try again. You’re missing a big, big , gotcha.

Aside, Jewish line is determined by matrilineal descent. By your own logic the mitochondrial DNA is shared, which is a rather significant aspect to simply gloss over.

Re: Christopher Columbus may have been Spanish and Jewish, documentary says

#316

Post by juunpp »

pvaldes wrote: post #152
juunpp wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How does a Jew discovering the Americas benefit the Spanish regime when the Spanish Catholic monarchy precisely kicked all Jews and Muslims from the peninsula with their ill-named "reconquista"? If this turns out to be true, then it'd be rather embarrassing. Presumably this Lorente has more evidence he hasn't put on display, so it isn't completely baseless either. It's certainly sketchy and not very scientific, thoug…

Somebody: changes history forever. People: "booh, he is not important at all, even my cousin could have discovered a new continent"... LOL, what happened with the new generations?

We've been spoiled, walking over the puddle isn't particularly interesting anymore :)

But in all seriousness, things like electricity or the atom are more interesting discoveries than a guy misjudging the size of the Earth and being lucky enough to not die halfway through his voyage paid for by two monarchs who just so happened to be looking for new enterprises to invest in.

Re: Christopher Columbus may have been Spanish and Jewish, documentary says

#317

Post by juunpp »

zimmen wrote: post #194

This certainly smells like a History Channel "documentary" to me! Right up there with Ancient Aliens and the like. - Analysis that is not shared to review - Data that is not shared for review - Broad assumptions that are quickly narrowed down to "facts" - There is "more evidence but we can't show you because.... reasons"

And the fact that this pseudo-science was broadcasted on national television is a disgrace for Spain and embarrassing for the Spaniards quoted in the article who are trying to do actual science.

Re: Christopher Columbus may have been Spanish and Jewish, documentary says

#318

Post by juunpp »

dumbo-octopus wrote: post #243
lazide wrote: post #231

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you have his number? Everyone I call tries to tell me I’m crazy in Spanish.

Fortunately, He took the time to document His work prior to leaving the company.

Not to take from your earlier point, but the evangelisms were not written by him. His teaching was oral and experiential, not written.

Re: Christopher Columbus may have been Spanish and Jewish, documentary says

#319

Post by juunpp »

dumbo-octopus wrote: post #179
pvaldes wrote: post #176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To exists is one thing. To be biologically relevant to deserve a new entire category is another very different. To start, this genes aren't exclusive from the group. And it is not a monofiletic group anymore, because is a religious one and anybody can join it. So from a "taxonomic" point of view is not what we would call a "natural group", speaking genetically. Is not different than claiming that there is a "Christia…

This argument is very detached from reality. The Jewish tribe is defined as being descended from Israel, with folks independently joining as a rather rare corner case. On the other hand, Christians are defined to be those people who have heard the gospel and chosen to accept Jesus as their Lord. It’s as if you said my family didn’t share DNA with me because an adoption or two had occurred over the centuries. It’s a b…

pvaldes is saying that biologically/genetically, the difference is irrelevant. And it is because we're >99% identical.

https://www.genome.gov/dna-day/15-ways/human-genomic-variati...

Re: Christopher Columbus may have been Spanish and Jewish, documentary says

#320

Post by dumbo-octopus »

juunpp wrote: post #318
dumbo-octopus wrote: post #243

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fortunately, He took the time to document His work prior to leaving the company.

Not to take from your earlier point, but the evangelisms were not written by him. His teaching was oral and experiential, not written.

Yes. Still, His work is documented.
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