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Christopher Columbus may have been Spanish and Jewish, documentary says

theguardian.com

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Re: Christopher Columbus may have been Spanish and Jewish, documentary says

#171

Post by pvaldes »

dumbo-octopus wrote: post #166
pvaldes wrote: post #159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is not such thing as "Jewish" DNA. Is a culture and religion, but not a fully different race. Some genes could be in the past more represented, but it was just "Mediterranean dotation". A mix of European, African and Asian. Today is much more mixed fortunately.

What would you call that genetic information which was passed down from Israel to his twelve children’s tribes?

I would call it barely distinguishable from the genetic information from their close neighbors. Now compare it with DNA from native Australians for example and you will find a much different picture.

Having in mind that we share a majority of our genes with other mammals, and almost all with chimps, so the range of allowed variation among people is in itself small.

Re: Christopher Columbus may have been Spanish and Jewish, documentary says

#172

Post by input_sh »

ywvcbk wrote: post #156
nroets wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also note that around the same time other European expeditions were making similar discoveries: 2 years before Columbus, Dias discovered the Cape of Good Hope and a decade later Da Gama braved 10,000 km of open ocean and discovered a sea route to India. Discover of the West Indies was imminent. Columbus only won because he took an irrational gamble.

The Portuguese were doing the rational thing and taking the much rational and safer option. Was anyone really going west before Columbus? Of course I assume the Portuguese might have discovered Brazil eventually anyway because of the ocean currents

Traveling west? Yes.

Traveling west, reaching land, leaving enough evidence to confirm the story five centuries later, making it back, and finally, convincing other people that it happened? No.

Re: Christopher Columbus may have been Spanish and Jewish, documentary says

#173

Post by netdevnet »

juunpp wrote: post #73
chipdart wrote: post #35

From the article: > “Unfortunately, from a scientific point of view, we can’t really evaluate what was in the documentary because they offered no data from the analysis whatsoever,” Antonio Alonso, a geneticist and former director of Spain’s National Institute of Toxicology and Forensic Sciences told El País. So, baseless speculation used by the Spanish regime to claim Christopher Columbus as Spanish during the Spani…

How does a Jew discovering the Americas benefit the Spanish regime when the Spanish Catholic monarchy precisely kicked all Jews and Muslims from the peninsula with their ill-named "reconquista"? If this turns out to be true, then it'd be rather embarrassing. Presumably this Lorente has more evidence he hasn't put on display, so it isn't completely baseless either. It's certainly sketchy and not very scientific, thoug…

The relevant bit is him being Spanish. That's what makes it appealing to the target audience of the article. Him not being catholic is not relevant and gets swept under the rug the same way the gypsy origin of flamenco (now considered spain's most popular form of folk music) get swept under the rug due to its popularity.

Re: Christopher Columbus may have been Spanish and Jewish, documentary says

#174

Post by dumbo-octopus »

pvaldes wrote: post #171
dumbo-octopus wrote: post #166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What would you call that genetic information which was passed down from Israel to his twelve children’s tribes?

I would call it barely distinguishable from the genetic information from their close neighbors. Now compare it with DNA from native Australians for example and you will find a much different picture. Having in mind that we share a majority of our genes with other mammals, and almost all with chimps, so the range of allowed variation among people is in itself small.

The idea being that since you believe it is “barely distinguishable”, it actually does not exist? Odd argument.

Re: Christopher Columbus may have been Spanish and Jewish, documentary says

#175

Post by [deleted] »

WalterBright wrote: post #163
juunpp wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How does a Jew discovering the Americas benefit the Spanish regime when the Spanish Catholic monarchy precisely kicked all Jews and Muslims from the peninsula with their ill-named "reconquista"? If this turns out to be true, then it'd be rather embarrassing. Presumably this Lorente has more evidence he hasn't put on display, so it isn't completely baseless either. It's certainly sketchy and not very scientific, thoug…

There are many claims of discovery of the Americas (even by ice age Frenchmen), but the one that had impact was Columbus'.

[deleted]

Re: Christopher Columbus may have been Spanish and Jewish, documentary says

#176

Post by pvaldes »

dumbo-octopus wrote: post #174
pvaldes wrote: post #171

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would call it barely distinguishable from the genetic information from their close neighbors. Now compare it with DNA from native Australians for example and you will find a much different picture. Having in mind that we share a majority of our genes with other mammals, and almost all with chimps, so the range of allowed variation among people is in itself small.

The idea being that since you believe it is “barely distinguishable”, it actually does not exist? Odd argument.

To exists is one thing. To be biologically relevant to deserve a new entire category is another very different.

To start, this genes aren't exclusive from the group. And it is not a monofiletic group anymore, because is a religious one and anybody can join it. So from a "taxonomic" point of view is not what we would call a "natural group", speaking genetically.

Is not different than claiming that there is a "Christian DNA". Biologically it does not have any sense.

Re: Christopher Columbus may have been Spanish and Jewish, documentary says

#177

Post by fauria »

chucke wrote: post #63

Spain still working on the national identity while not reconciling that its two most famous sailors were a portuguese and a genovese. You can see it in claims like these or the internal reframing of the magellan voyage as the "magellan-elcano expedition ".

Fast forward 500 years:

"The United States still working on the national identity while not reconciling that its two most famous entrepreneurs were a south african and a scottish. You can see it in claims like these or the internal reframing of the musk voyage as the "musk-bezos expedition ".

Re: Christopher Columbus may have been Spanish and Jewish, documentary says

#178

Post by lazide »

WalterBright wrote: post #164
Affric wrote: post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why is the ‘reconquista’ “ill named”? Also, Columbus largely made his own legend. Everyone told him he was wrong (and he was) but he just so happened to discover land people might actually want. And so he was very much vindicated by the discovery in his own eyes. And it was daring. Everyone rightly told him he was mad and incorrectly told him he would die. It was one of the craziest expeditions of all time. And becau…

I seriously doubt he was an idiot. But his thinking was constrained by what was known at the time and what was commonly thought to be true. Our modern thinking is also constrained by similar misjudgments, we just like to think we're smarter than that. 500 years hence, people will laugh at our idiocy.

Eh, it would be like insisting the moon was made of cheese and in low earth orbit - and somehow getting someone to sponsor your (literal moonshot) - and then somehow reaching it in it’s real place, finding out it was made of gold instead, and then bringing a ton back.

Which single-handedly started a space race which led to colonizing the moon (and, uh, mostly exterminating the indigenous population which was totally different than the folks who were supposed to be there in the first place).

Oh, except it was also a completely different moon that we somehow weren’t aware was there.

Nothing he was proposing should have worked, and yet somehow not only did it, but it made everyone (who funded it) fabulously rich beyond their wildest imaginings.

Idiot savant?

Re: Christopher Columbus may have been Spanish and Jewish, documentary says

#179

Post by dumbo-octopus »

pvaldes wrote: post #176
dumbo-octopus wrote: post #174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The idea being that since you believe it is “barely distinguishable”, it actually does not exist? Odd argument.

To exists is one thing. To be biologically relevant to deserve a new entire category is another very different. To start, this genes aren't exclusive from the group. And it is not a monofiletic group anymore, because is a religious one and anybody can join it. So from a "taxonomic" point of view is not what we would call a "natural group", speaking genetically. Is not different than claiming that there is a "Christia…

This argument is very detached from reality. The Jewish tribe is defined as being descended from Israel, with folks independently joining as a rather rare corner case. On the other hand, Christians are defined to be those people who have heard the gospel and chosen to accept Jesus as their Lord.

It’s as if you said my family didn’t share DNA with me because an adoption or two had occurred over the centuries. It’s a bizarre argument that keeps coming up here, I don’t know what the real underlying root of it is.

Re: Christopher Columbus may have been Spanish and Jewish, documentary says

#180

Post by WalterBright »

lazide wrote: post #178
WalterBright wrote: post #164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I seriously doubt he was an idiot. But his thinking was constrained by what was known at the time and what was commonly thought to be true. Our modern thinking is also constrained by similar misjudgments, we just like to think we're smarter than that. 500 years hence, people will laugh at our idiocy.

Eh, it would be like insisting the moon was made of cheese and in low earth orbit - and somehow getting someone to sponsor your (literal moonshot) - and then somehow reaching it in it’s real place, finding out it was made of gold instead, and then bringing a ton back. Which single-handedly started a space race which led to colonizing the moon (and, uh, mostly exterminating the indigenous population which was totally…

Many otherwise intelligent people hold on to an idiotic idea, especially when it's to their advantage to hold on to it.

In fact, probably all of us do this.

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