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Pilot flying Helene rescue missions in NC threatened with arrest

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Re: Pilot flying Helene rescue missions in NC threatened with arrest

#51

Post by actionfromafar »

_djo_ wrote: post #39
JumpCrisscross wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> if you don't have readily available pilots to fly it Sure. But it’s easier to find a pilot than a helicopter in a disaster. My point is threatening the pilot with arrest and sending him and his chopper away makes no sense.

As I said elsewhere, I'm willing to cut those responders at the local level a bit of slack given that they're probably exhausted, overwhelmed, and not fully aware of all the parts of the response. That's why it's important to offer your services via the organisations/groups/etc set up for it, rather than finding the nearest local first responders.

That's why it's important to not have chiefs defaulting to fear of losing control vs fear of losing lives.

You can see this in other chaotic situations, such as war. Command and control structures work great until they get overwhelmed by too many events on the ground, at which point they completely gridlock.

Re: Pilot flying Helene rescue missions in NC threatened with arrest

#52

Post by traceroute66 »

jdenning wrote: post #44
_djo_ wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or that he was overwhelmed by local issues and wasn't aware of which one of the many organisations was the one coordinating volunteers with their own helicopters. He may just have known that random people adding themselves into the mix wasn't allowed.

So how should the pilot have known who to contact, if even the assistant fire chief wasn't aware of who was in charge of coordinating volunteers? I agree he was probably having a stressful day, but if his default response to stress is to threaten to put a man in a cage, then he should not have authority.

> So how should the pilot have known who to contact

Part of your training as a pilot is learning how to find out about stuff going on in the area where you plan to fly and who to contact about flying in that area.

If you don't know (or have forgotten) how to do that, you should not be flying a plane. Full stop.

EDIT: For some reason I can't reply to to the commenter below who pasted "met with multiple law enforcement officers and first responders".

Those are not people responsible for airspace access and airspace management, and the pilot should have known that. Its 101-basics stuff.

Meeting with law enforcement and first responders about airspace is about as useful as fart in a spacesuit.

In response to "followed all FAA regulations", well he would not be threatened with arrest if he had .... I suspect there is far more to the story than the one-sided article lets on !

Re: Pilot flying Helene rescue missions in NC threatened with arrest

#54

Post by closewith »

nrjames wrote: post #41

I've spent a significant amount of time working in disaster response. In the US (and probably elsewhere), you have "Disaster Cowboys." These are people who are untrained but fancy they know better how to do things than people who have spent their lives training for these types of scenarios. Picture 1000 people showing up with their pickups and John boats following Hurricane Katrina. Or, imagine the Coast Guard conduc…

We call them Walter Mittys, not Disaster Cowboys, but yes, these people appear at every scene. Everything else you said rings true, but sometimes motives are more sinister than a desire for personal glory. Vulnerable people attract predators and there's plenty of vulnerable people in disaster zones.

Re: Pilot flying Helene rescue missions in NC threatened with arrest

#55

Post by shakow »

_djo_ wrote: post #23
shakow wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> He should've approached the relevant air operations cell The one that was not yet deployed?

It was deployed, it sounds like he just wasn't aware of it. For instance, the Carolina Emergency Response Team was coordinating private helicopter assistance from Hickory airport.

AFAICT from TFA, it looks like this cell could only have been active from Sept. 30th, as it was when the no-flight zone was removed. IIUC, the guy started its stuff the 28th, and the incident happened the 29th.

Re: Pilot flying Helene rescue missions in NC threatened with arrest

#56

Post by jdenning »

traceroute66 wrote: post #52
jdenning wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So how should the pilot have known who to contact, if even the assistant fire chief wasn't aware of who was in charge of coordinating volunteers? I agree he was probably having a stressful day, but if his default response to stress is to threaten to put a man in a cage, then he should not have authority.

> So how should the pilot have known who to contact Part of your training as a pilot is learning how to find out about stuff going on in the area where you plan to fly and who to contact about flying in that area. If you don't know (or have forgotten) how to do that, you should not be flying a plane. Full stop. EDIT: For some reason I can't reply to to the commenter below who pasted "met with multiple law enforcement…

"Once in the Lake Lure area on Saturday, Seidhom said he first landed at the nearest airport and met with multiple law enforcement officers and first responders to coordinate communication channels with them and to find out what was needed and where he should go to help."

He did contact local officials and coordinate with them. Why didn't these local officials point him in the right direction?

Edit in response to your edit: he also contacted the airport and followed all FAA regulations.

2nd edit response: so the fact that the assistant fire chief threatened to have him arrested implies his guilt? No one has ever been threatened with arrest without having broken a law?

Re: Pilot flying Helene rescue missions in NC threatened with arrest

#57

Post by lukan »

nrjames wrote: post #41

I've spent a significant amount of time working in disaster response. In the US (and probably elsewhere), you have "Disaster Cowboys." These are people who are untrained but fancy they know better how to do things than people who have spent their lives training for these types of scenarios. Picture 1000 people showing up with their pickups and John boats following Hurricane Katrina. Or, imagine the Coast Guard conduc…

"It is desperately unfair to them when somebody untrained, with a "cowboy" attitude, shows up and flips the script. "

Those rescued by the cowboys did not expressed that. Sure, everyone prefers the professionals to show up, but if they don't, because they are overwhelmed by the situation, I surely would be glad, if an "cowboy" comes instead to pick me up.

Troublemakers in search for attention are to be kept away for sure, but those who are reasonable and willing to help and have a helicopter, like the person from the story, are probably open for an official way to help. Not what happened here.

Re: Pilot flying Helene rescue missions in NC threatened with arrest

#58

Post by ekianjo »

_djo_ wrote: post #39
JumpCrisscross wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> if you don't have readily available pilots to fly it Sure. But it’s easier to find a pilot than a helicopter in a disaster. My point is threatening the pilot with arrest and sending him and his chopper away makes no sense.

As I said elsewhere, I'm willing to cut those responders at the local level a bit of slack given that they're probably exhausted, overwhelmed, and not fully aware of all the parts of the response. That's why it's important to offer your services via the organisations/groups/etc set up for it, rather than finding the nearest local first responders.

> m willing to cut those responders at the local level a bit of slack

Why don't you consider they may be incompetent as an option?

Re: Pilot flying Helene rescue missions in NC threatened with arrest

#59

Post by kortilla »

_djo_ wrote: post #39
JumpCrisscross wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> if you don't have readily available pilots to fly it Sure. But it’s easier to find a pilot than a helicopter in a disaster. My point is threatening the pilot with arrest and sending him and his chopper away makes no sense.

As I said elsewhere, I'm willing to cut those responders at the local level a bit of slack given that they're probably exhausted, overwhelmed, and not fully aware of all the parts of the response. That's why it's important to offer your services via the organisations/groups/etc set up for it, rather than finding the nearest local first responders.

People in authority get no slack when they start abusing power to flex without having a good reason. This dude just didn’t like being challenged.

Re: Pilot flying Helene rescue missions in NC threatened with arrest

#60

Post by oefrha »

sethammons wrote: post #49
oefrha wrote: post #19

While the brave men should be applauded, can I vent my frustration about these victims, who decided it was a good idea to stay alone in a mountain AirBnB in the possible path of an incoming hurricane (I won’t even say this if they actually lived there)? It’s not like the hurricane came out of nowhere, there was plenty of advance warning. Good people sometimes die trying to rescue these idiots. Oh and there’s also a 4…

This is a mountain area with regular residents that is over five hours of driving from the ocean. They expected a couple inches of rain. They didn't expect 20 inches and a dam to break. Nobody predicted this kind of damage. These were not idiots who ignored warnings. These are people who were hit with an unprecedented natural disaster and if you had called them idiots outloud around here you may end up with a broken…

Five hours of driving from the ocean is nothing. I have lived on opposite sides of the world and prepared for both hurricanes and typhoons plenty of times while being further from shore. I have prepared for two recently. These aren’t natural disasters without warning (unlike say earthquakes), and while you can hardly mitigate the damage, there’s no excuse being stranded unless you simply live alone. Maybe people in your area collectively have no preparedness at all, if they all think moving away from a mountain AirBnB into civilization in preparation for a hurricane is outlandish.
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