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Dance training superior to physical exercise in inducing brain plasticity (2018)

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Re: Dance training superior to physical exercise in inducing brain plasticity (2018)

#101

Post by userbinator »

marginalia_nu wrote: post #52
changing1999 wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This (intuitively) makes sense, since standing on a ball requires full focus, can't really get distracted.

Does it though? Balancing doesn't seem like an active cognitive process, like I don't have to think about not falling over to stay upright on a bicycle. All the little shifts of body weight needed to not tip over seem to be done automatically.

Once it's moving, a bicycle basically balances itself. That's why the hardest part of learning to ride one is starting and stopping.

Re: Dance training superior to physical exercise in inducing brain plasticity (2018)

#102

Post by tech_ken »

0xcde4c3db wrote: post #63
bogtog wrote: post #19

I do MRI work, and my gut is that none of the claims about dance vs. exercise would replicate. The behavioral data suggests that activity of some type will improve cognitive function (main effects of time). Such beneficial effects of activity on the brain have been shown before, and this is generally accepted. However, the authors' behavioral data doesn't show any difference between the dance vs. exercise groups. Thi…

> The authors' claims about BDNF are supported by a p-value of p = .046, and having main conclusions hinge on p-values of p > .01 usually means the conclusions are rubbish. Also, I don't have the references handy, but I recall other studies showing that exercise-induced BDNF changes can be mediated by e.g. air pollution. So even if the difference there is real, it might be premature to attribute it specifically to th…

This is a good point, maybe the dance studio has a better air filtration system than the other exercise location

Re: Dance training superior to physical exercise in inducing brain plasticity (2018)

#104

Post by buescher »

changing1999 wrote: post #15

I would like to see a comparison with other types of physical exercise that contain an element of continuous learning. Wrestling, BJJ, even boxercise, crossfit and such. Since the argument seems to be specifically about learning new routines and how that impacts neuroplasticity, dance vs other more cognitively challenging workouts would be an interesting comparison.

Good martial arts instructors are very experienced at working with unathletic beginners who have never had much coaching before. “No, the other left.” Probably easier to find a class at level as a total beginner where you’re still expected to make a lot of progress than some other things.

Re: Dance training superior to physical exercise in inducing brain plasticity (2018)

#105

Post by j45 »

macintux wrote: post #38
ericmcer wrote: post #37

I don't have any science behind this, but it makes sense that training more complex motions would trigger greater brain improvements. Dance vs basketball or some other high coordination/skill activity might have less disparity than say dance vs. exercise bike.

Speaking as someone who tried to take a tap class as an adult, only to discover it was for people who were already experienced dancers: yes, dance training is vastly more complex than exercise. Update: what absolutely killed me is that we would run through a complex step two or three times, and we were expected to be able to practice at home. I didn't understand what we were doing while we were doing it, there was no…

Another factor also seems to be how learning differs between adult brains, and non-adult brains.

A child's brain isn't finished forming till about age 25-26, when the prefrontal cortex finally matures, from my understanding. [1][2]

Once Adult brain is in the drivers seat, learning isn't how it used to be in school. That can be better and worse. Generally, for adults, it can be more useful to try to start from where they are and learn one step outward from there.

Adults having to learn something new can.. sometimes by different means. A dance instructor friend mentioned they could make two left feet better (not perfect) by teaching them to practice the micro movements, one at a time, sometimes for hundreds of reps, and then putting them together slowly.[3][4]

Anecdotal again, but when I tried learning a move the same way, it wasn't as hard learning it a bit at a time vs just throwing myself into it.

We know muscle memory is a thing for using tools like Vim and keyboard shortcuts, so I don't think it's out of the realm of possibility.[5][6]

References:

[1] Development Period of Prefrontal Cortex "Prefrontal cortex matures around age 25." https://www.intechopen.com/chapters/70083

[2] Development of the Prefrontal Cortex "Prefrontal cortex development extends into adulthood." https://www.nature.com/articles/s41583-019-0149-4

[3] Neuroplasticity Subserving Motor Skill Learning "Motor skill learning involves neuroplasticity." https://www.cell.com/neuron/fulltext/S0896-6273(11)00903-9

[4] Motor Learning and Plasticity "Practice leads to changes in motor cortex organization." https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3921001/

[5] Experience-Dependent Structural Plasticity in the Adult Human Brain "Adult brain changes structurally with new experiences." https://academic.oup.com/cercor/article/15/4/458/312872

[6] Micro-learning in the Age of Neuroscience https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fpsyg.2021.6401... "Micro-learning enhances retention and mastery."

Re: Dance training superior to physical exercise in inducing brain plasticity (2018)

#106

Post by yowayb »

Anecdotally, I've found that dancing feels good physically, but also connects you psychologically and culturally with others. More intense activity like CrossFit for example also builds connection, but I don't think you need to go that hard to reap physical benefits, especially as we age.

Re: Dance training superior to physical exercise in inducing brain plasticity (2018)

#107

Post by ropable »

My personal assumption (unsupported by evidence) is that the social aspect of dance training might be as big of a factor in any supposed difference here. Dance classes are inherently more social group activities than many type of structured "physical exercise" (e.g. strength training in the gym, running, etc.)

Re: Dance training superior to physical exercise in inducing brain plasticity (2018)

#108

Post by marginalia_nu »

userbinator wrote: post #101
marginalia_nu wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Does it though? Balancing doesn't seem like an active cognitive process, like I don't have to think about not falling over to stay upright on a bicycle. All the little shifts of body weight needed to not tip over seem to be done automatically.

Once it's moving, a bicycle basically balances itself. That's why the hardest part of learning to ride one is starting and stopping.

You still need to adjust your balance. If you send a bicycle off without a rider, it will tip over after a while.

Same with standing up. Needs constant small adjustments.

Re: Dance training superior to physical exercise in inducing brain plasticity (2018)

#109

Post by andoando »

anonzzzies wrote: post #55
fransje26 wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Also, to be contrary old dude into martial arts all his life, I don't really consider many head bashing 'styles' now to be 'arts'. Which ones would you consider to be "arts", and worth getting into? I was recently thinking that I would like to get back into martial arts, but having done taekwondo in the past, I'm absolutely not interested in going back to any form of bashing impact..

I will try to do Aikido until I die. I started in the 80s with Kyokushin and I trained with top trainers; when I was young they wanted to move me to thai or kick boxing as I would, like numerous dutch guys did of the same school, kick the fuck out of the competition. Never had that interest. I like the movements and indeed the art behind it. Someone in this thread said boxing is like ballroom dancing; I really don't…

In an actual fight it may only look like dancing temporarily but look up a good shadow boxing video. In training its very much about footwork, moving rhythmically and gracefully.

Im not a great boxer or anything but I used to do melbourne shuffle a lot and it definitely has the same vibe to me

Re: Dance training superior to physical exercise in inducing brain plasticity (2018)

#110

Post by gosub100 »

WalterBright wrote: post #67
changing1999 wrote: post #15

I would like to see a comparison with other types of physical exercise that contain an element of continuous learning. Wrestling, BJJ, even boxercise, crossfit and such. Since the argument seems to be specifically about learning new routines and how that impacts neuroplasticity, dance vs other more cognitively challenging workouts would be an interesting comparison.

With dance you are constantly learning new material. Much less so with an exercise routine, even if you "mix it up".

So those square dancers are constantly coming up with new material? Ballroom innovators are patenting never before seen ways to articulate the human body? Sure.
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