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What if we hired writers like we hire developers

hitesh.in

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Re: What if we hired writers like we hire developers

#71

Post by mkr-hn »

simonbrown wrote: post #66
mkr-hn wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A writing sample is a great filter. Any good writer will jump at the chance to write out a quick (and good) piece of text if it means they might get paid.

Why would a good writer be any more likely to do this than a bad writer? Surely it would depend on market conditions?

It's easy to write out a few sentences or a paragraph for something you're interested in. If you really want to test a writer, ask them for their opinion on traditional publishing. There's no "right" answer, but most writers have an opinion on it and shouldn't have trouble writing a little on the subject.

Re: What if we hired writers like we hire developers

#72

Post by briandear »

Lendal wrote: post #63
nessus42 wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you're hiring a senior engineer that claims he spent last 5 years coding Big Table at Google, you have to take his word for it. I find this assertion to be virtually nonsensical. I've never met a programmer who hasn't written some code that they could show you, if for no other reason than programmers who are passionate about what they do, usually write at least little programs just for fun. And if I were interview…

I write code every day, but I don't save it and its been 20 years since I wrote any code for 'pleasure'. For pleasure I have sex, go to a symphony or swim in the ocean. Coding is something I do because I'm good at it and people will pay me for it. Further, I don't save code. I sell it. If I saved it then I would have to organize it, keep track of it and back it up. Why do that? I'm a programmer. Code I have written f…

Github is an amazing product.

Re: What if we hired writers like we hire developers

#73

Post by kstenerud »

india wrote: post #39
nessus42 wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Okay, well Google doesn't want to hire you if you can't write efficient and elegant code on a whiteboard for a problem they've specified while they look over your shoulder. Me, I only don't want to hire you if you can't take a few pages of code you've written for fun and make it presentable. Who would you rather interview with? (Assuming, of course, that I was offering jobs as nice as the jobs at Google.)

I might be an exception here but I much prefer the whiteboard. I have one in my room and I enjoy problem solving. Pressure environments really do not impact me much. And if you have a whiteboard in your office and you do use it for actual work and not just interviews, this gives me an excellent opportunity to check your quality as a future problem solving accomplice. It provides me a real if brief window into what wo…

"And if you have a whiteboard in your office and you do use it for actual work and not just interviews, this gives me an excellent opportunity to check your quality as a future problem solving accomplice."

Except that when preparing for an interview, most places will clean the whiteboards before you arrive to make things more presentable, and to avoid accidentally divulging company secrets.

Re: What if we hired writers like we hire developers

#75

Post by kstenerud »

Lendal wrote: post #63
nessus42 wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you're hiring a senior engineer that claims he spent last 5 years coding Big Table at Google, you have to take his word for it. I find this assertion to be virtually nonsensical. I've never met a programmer who hasn't written some code that they could show you, if for no other reason than programmers who are passionate about what they do, usually write at least little programs just for fun. And if I were interview…

I write code every day, but I don't save it and its been 20 years since I wrote any code for 'pleasure'. For pleasure I have sex, go to a symphony or swim in the ocean. Coding is something I do because I'm good at it and people will pay me for it. Further, I don't save code. I sell it. If I saved it then I would have to organize it, keep track of it and back it up. Why do that? I'm a programmer. Code I have written f…

You save code + accompanying documents in order to build up a portfolio to demonstrate to a potential employer how you work, how well you know your tools, and what your idea of a shippable product is. During the interview, you can talk about why you wrote the software, what designs you tried, what kinds of challenges you faced while doing so, and how you surmounted them.

At my company, we offer coding challenges for people who don't have a portfolio already. But really, why not just write software of your own choosing so that you don't need to do coding challenges to prove your ability? It's a far more efficient approach.

Re: What if we hired writers like we hire developers

#76

Post by scribblemacher »

soyummy wrote: post #38
kafkaesque wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, I did not get it. I think this is because, as I said, I just recently started learning to program. I started in January, but I do not commit 100% of my time to it, as I have a full time job that deals with something completely different. I know nothing about hiring developers or being a developer. Also, for the record, I just read in Hitesh's blog's comment section that this is not about hiring writers. Thanks, e…

Here's a development tip: Obviously, to dabble in programming you must learn the fundamentals-- the syntax and grammar. However, your ultimate goal is to envision a problem, device a system that solves the problem, and then gracefully describe that system using your chosen language. You can always look grammar and syntax up in the documentation. I think you will see the parallels to your current occupation.

As a Technical Writer trying to weasel his way into more developmenty tasks, I find this advice insanely insightful. I spend a lot of time frustrated at my lack of development training, and maybe don't step back enough to clearly define the problem-solution before opening Vim.

Re: What if we hired writers like we hire developers

#77

Post by roc »

Cd00d wrote: post #57
brandnewlow wrote: post #11

At many newspapers they ask prospective reporters for 1. Clips (writing samples) 2. A copy editing test (to make sure they write cleanly) 3. Actual stories written from some facts or info provided. That's not so different from asking a developer to write some code during technical interviews. Good clean copy requires similar precision, but your compiler happens to be a human.

I think it's very different to give someone a weekend to do an edit test and story sample, than to demand code whilst looking over the applicant's shoulder. One is much like how normal work is done, and the other adds unnecessary stress and pressure that is rare in a functioning workplace.

So give them the weekend to do the code test.

Re: What if we hired writers like we hire developers

#78

Post by roc »

Dylan16807 wrote: post #4
Smudge wrote: post #2

The tongue twister was a dead giveaway. Personally, I'd walk out (or hang up) as soon as the Oxford Comma came up, but I have less patience than most.

Really? I thought the Oxford Comma question was the only useful one there. You might have to define the term but it's good at showing basic knowledge of grammar conventions. Anyway this article has a point that this process isn't effective for finding good writers, but I'll be damned if asking people to write one or two sentences doesn't filter out the illiterate people that wander in your door (think FizzBuzz).

The Oxford Comma question isn't like FizzBuzz, it's like a question on K&R vs BSD brace style.

It's irrelevant trivia. All you're going to do is trip up people who may not have been exposed to the terminology or hadn't encountered both styles yet. Any writer can handle either style and knowing the terms says nothing about whether someone can write.

FizzBuzz is about making sure someone has a basic handle on the actual job. An equivalent for writers would be to ask for a quick poem or three sentence story or something.

Re: What if we hired writers like we hire developers

#79

Post by atestu »

wisty wrote: post #60
rdl wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are there any actually useful integrity tests?

Look at the personality tests investment banks ask, and reverse the scoring. - How often do you go to parties? - Do you find it hard to make friends? - Are most people basically dishonest? - Do you get a buzz out of taking risks? etc.

I'm unfamiliar with these questions… Inverse the scoring? So what, going to parties is good or bad? How is this relevant to determine if you're good at your job?

Re: What if we hired writers like we hire developers

#80

Post by excuse-me »

atestu wrote: post #79
wisty wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Look at the personality tests investment banks ask, and reverse the scoring. - How often do you go to parties? - Do you find it hard to make friends? - Are most people basically dishonest? - Do you get a buzz out of taking risks? etc.

I'm unfamiliar with these questions… Inverse the scoring? So what, going to parties is good or bad? How is this relevant to determine if you're good at your job?

The other classic bank question is "do you prefer cycling on an exercise bike or on the road"

I think the idea is that an excerisice bike means you are fitness and performance orientated and able to work toward a arbitrary goal without any obvious reward or it means you are willing to do pointless grunt work instead of something pleasant and interesting - either way you are supposed to say exercise bike

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