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What if we hired writers like we hire developers

hitesh.in

51–60 of 97 posts

Re: What if we hired writers like we hire developers

#51
A developer is a writer; one writes English and the other writes code, but they both write to a human audience (the only "code" a machine needs to see is 0s and 1s; programming languages are for humans).

So there really shouldn't be a big difference in hiring a writer vs. a developer; and a good test would probably be to have developers write essays in English about a technical question: can they make themselves understood?

I would not hire a developer who is incapable of explaining what he's doing, why he's doing it, what the other options are, etc.

Wouldn't it be a good technique to have interviewees bring an example of their own code that they're especially proud of, and have them explain what it does and why it's great?

Re: What if we hired writers like we hire developers

#52
post #51

A developer is a writer; one writes English and the other writes code, but they both write to a human audience (the only "code" a machine needs to see is 0s and 1s; programming languages are for humans). So there really shouldn't be a big difference in hiring a writer vs. a developer; and a good test would probably be to have developers write essays in English about a technical question: can they make themselves unde…

> A developer is a writer; one writes English and the other writes code, but they both write to a human audience (the only "code" a machine needs to see is 0s and 1s; programming languages are for humans).

I definitely agree with this! That's what I had been thinking the whole time while reading the articles and the comment threads. This is also my motto, here in the office.

It's too simple to say that there are differences between writers and programmers. I think "writer" should be treated as an umbrella term that encompasses braod ranges of skills. After all, a journalist, a poet, a technical writer and a translator aren't really doing the same thing, are they? I like to believe that the core subset of skills needed to be one of these is also needed (or at least highly valued) to be a good programmer.

Programming is writing. Absolutely.

Re: What if we hired writers like we hire developers

#54
post #33

> Good spellings and knowledge of grammar rules does not indicate a good writer, and there are tools (spelling/grammar check) and (editorial) processes to take care of that. Good grammar doesn't indicate a good writer, but bad grammar does indicate a bad one[1]. (Good grammar meaning, in this case, an ear for language. Good writers avoid grammatical errors because grammatical errors sound wrong , like an off-pitch no…

"Good grammar doesn't indicate a good writer, but bad grammar does indicate a bad one" that is not true at all - not knowing grammar well doesn't mean the writer has nothing good or creative, or worthwhile to say (or write about). Grammar is just a technicality to be overcome. Creative writing (as opposed to technical writing), is something that is not measured by the knowledge of the language, but by the knowledge o…

>that is not true at all - not knowing grammar well doesn't mean the writer has nothing good or creative, or worthwhile to say (or write about).

Having something to say and saying it effectively are not synonymous. There are many people with worthy ideas who fail to express themselves competently.

I have yet to encounter a good writer who has poor grammar. Good writers care about grammar, for the same reason good programmers care about style: it's a mark of careful and deliberate artifice.

A good programmer doesn't simply want their programs to compile and run without error; they want it to be readable, maintainable, and elegant. They want the quality of their code to speak for itself. Similarly, a good writer seeks not only to clearly express their ideas, but to do so in a way that evokes thought and emotion on the part of the reader. To do so it is necessary, but not sufficient, to achieve technical mastery of the language in which you write.

Good carpenters don't make sloppy cuts, good chefs don't burn the rice, and good painters don't make stray strokes. These are the easy things to get right: the bare essentials for being competent at your task. A person cooking a meal for their family may use too much salt, a person playing guitar around a campfire may play the wrong chord, and someone responding to a comment on the Internet may talk lik dis,, or use unnessary punctuaton!

The difference between the craftsman and the lay person is that the craftsman takes as writ the technical mastery of their skills, and focuses on composition. The lay person is concerned only with the gist.

Re: What if we hired writers like we hire developers

#56
post #33

> Good spellings and knowledge of grammar rules does not indicate a good writer, and there are tools (spelling/grammar check) and (editorial) processes to take care of that. Good grammar doesn't indicate a good writer, but bad grammar does indicate a bad one[1]. (Good grammar meaning, in this case, an ear for language. Good writers avoid grammatical errors because grammatical errors sound wrong , like an off-pitch no…

"Good grammar doesn't indicate a good writer, but bad grammar does indicate a bad one" that is not true at all - not knowing grammar well doesn't mean the writer has nothing good or creative, or worthwhile to say (or write about). Grammar is just a technicality to be overcome. Creative writing (as opposed to technical writing), is something that is not measured by the knowledge of the language, but by the knowledge o…

not knowing grammar well doesn't mean the writer has nothing good or creative, or worthwhile to say (or write about).

In those cases the person in question (and his potential readers) would be much better served if he worked with a skilled ghost writer or co-author, rather than trying to write something on his own. Much in the way a scientist or mathematician, who only knows a little programming, is often better served working together with a skilled programmer rather trying translate their domain knowledge to code on their own.

Re: What if we hired writers like we hire developers

#57

At many newspapers they ask prospective reporters for 1. Clips (writing samples) 2. A copy editing test (to make sure they write cleanly) 3. Actual stories written from some facts or info provided. That's not so different from asking a developer to write some code during technical interviews. Good clean copy requires similar precision, but your compiler happens to be a human.

I think it's very different to give someone a weekend to do an edit test and story sample, than to demand code whilst looking over the applicant's shoulder. One is much like how normal work is done, and the other adds unnecessary stress and pressure that is rare in a functioning workplace.

Re: What if we hired writers like we hire developers

#58

> Good spellings and knowledge of grammar rules does not indicate a good writer, and there are tools (spelling/grammar check) and (editorial) processes to take care of that. Good grammar doesn't indicate a good writer, but bad grammar does indicate a bad one[1]. (Good grammar meaning, in this case, an ear for language. Good writers avoid grammatical errors because grammatical errors sound wrong , like an off-pitch no…

I hadn't heard of Rimbaud's letter until now. It's damn crafty! Thanks. :)

Re: What if we hired writers like we hire developers

#59
I think it would be funny to do one of these for hiring plumbers. And you ask them what toilets they have unclogged outside of work for their own projects. And if they tell you they won't unclog toilets if they don't get paid, you dismiss them for having no passion for their work ...

Re: What if we hired writers like we hire developers

#60
post #43

It looks like it's time to recycle some electrons and post the FAQ that Hacker News readers have helped me put together with their previous thoughtful comments about hiring procedures. There are many discussions here on HN about company hiring procedures. From participants in earlier discussions I have learned about many useful references on the subject, which I have gathered here in a FAQ file. The review article by…

Are there any actually useful integrity tests?

Look at the personality tests investment banks ask, and reverse the scoring.

- How often do you go to parties?

- Do you find it hard to make friends?

- Are most people basically dishonest?

- Do you get a buzz out of taking risks?

etc.

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