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What if we hired writers like we hire developers

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Re: What if we hired writers like we hire developers

#31

Post by einhverfr »

jaems33 wrote: post #14
kkowalczyk wrote: post #12

This ignores different realities in how programmers and writers work. If you're hiring a writer, you cam ask to see his previous work. Unless he worked for CIA, he can point to books he's written, articles he published etc. You can then read them and that's all you need to make a decision if he's competent enough (you might still interview for cultural fit). If you're hiring a senior engineer that claims he spent las…

Where is the fine line between coding tests and spec work? I'm not a programmer, but I've seen startups co-founded by engineers try hiring designers in a similar fashion to I assume programmers as they test designers with a variety of unpaid projects. I've found it to be pretty annoying given that I've already shown a portfolio of work and it's not unlike spec work. I get that some people may have fabricated their hi…

I see no problem with trying to hire developers from the contributor pool of the open source projects my company has helped found.

Re: What if we hired writers like we hire developers

#32

Post by einhverfr »

mbell wrote: post #16
FreakLegion wrote: post #10

> Good spellings and knowledge of grammar rules does not indicate a good writer, and there are tools (spelling/grammar check) and (editorial) processes to take care of that. Good grammar doesn't indicate a good writer, but bad grammar does indicate a bad one[1]. (Good grammar meaning, in this case, an ear for language. Good writers avoid grammatical errors because grammatical errors sound wrong , like an off-pitch no…

I agree with your premise but your post is a case in point. There are as many words inside parenthesis as outside making it incredibly confusing to read. Even worse, you have a reference '[2]' nested inside parenthesis. Using parenthesis like this indicates that it should be either a footnote or worded differently. Nesting it just makes my brain shut off. I fall victim to using parenthesis in this manor myself quite…

Indeed. But in this manor is the median the messuage?

(Despite what my spell check says, there are no misspellings there. A dictionary might be useful though ;-) Apologies at picking on typos and showing off knowledge of obscure words.)

Re: What if we hired writers like we hire developers

#33

Post by chii »

FreakLegion wrote: post #10

> Good spellings and knowledge of grammar rules does not indicate a good writer, and there are tools (spelling/grammar check) and (editorial) processes to take care of that. Good grammar doesn't indicate a good writer, but bad grammar does indicate a bad one[1]. (Good grammar meaning, in this case, an ear for language. Good writers avoid grammatical errors because grammatical errors sound wrong , like an off-pitch no…

"Good grammar doesn't indicate a good writer, but bad grammar does indicate a bad one"

that is not true at all - not knowing grammar well doesn't mean the writer has nothing good or creative, or worthwhile to say (or write about).

Grammar is just a technicality to be overcome. Creative writing (as opposed to technical writing), is something that is not measured by the knowledge of the language, but by the knowledge of humanity, science, culture and anything that intersects in between. An eye for details also helps. But not grammar.

Re: What if we hired writers like we hire developers

#34

Post by kafkaesque »

nessus42 wrote: post #25
kafkaesque wrote: post #21

I'm a professional writer; i.e., I get paid to write. I didn't study journalism but I was in an interdisciplinary programme that consisted of literature, history, and language (somewhat of a modern day philology degree) in Canada. I've just recently started to learn how to program. I think if this hiring process works for you, great! But as someone who recently started learning to program, I must say writers are vast…

Did you really not get that the OP is a parody? The point is that this is obviously NOT the way to hire writers. The implication then being that it is also not the way to hire programmers, even though, sadly, hiring programers is typically done just that way these days.

No, I did not get it. I think this is because, as I said, I just recently started learning to program. I started in January, but I do not commit 100% of my time to it, as I have a full time job that deals with something completely different.

I know nothing about hiring developers or being a developer.

Also, for the record, I just read in Hitesh's blog's comment section that this is not about hiring writers.

Thanks, everyone, for not beating me up for it! :)

Re: What if we hired writers like we hire developers

#35

Post by nessus42 »

india wrote: post #27
nessus42 wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you're hiring a senior engineer that claims he spent last 5 years coding Big Table at Google, you have to take his word for it. I find this assertion to be virtually nonsensical. I've never met a programmer who hasn't written some code that they could show you, if for no other reason than programmers who are passionate about what they do, usually write at least little programs just for fun. And if I were interview…

I write lots of code just for the sheer pleasure of it. None of it is publicly available though nor would I like to share it. Shipping code is a lot of work. The other day I wrote a quick app at my end to analyze and make sense of some parts of a project that I am about to take on. It does what it needs to but if I had to ship it, I would want to proof read it and describe it's purpose to a general audience and make…

Okay, well Google doesn't want to hire you if you can't write efficient and elegant code on a whiteboard for a problem they've specified while they look over your shoulder. Me, I only don't want to hire you if you can't take a few pages of code you've written for fun and make it presentable. Who would you rather interview with? (Assuming, of course, that I was offering jobs as nice as the jobs at Google.)

Re: What if we hired writers like we hire developers

#36

Post by jonmrodriguez »

einhverfr wrote: post #30
FreakLegion wrote: post #10

> Good spellings and knowledge of grammar rules does not indicate a good writer, and there are tools (spelling/grammar check) and (editorial) processes to take care of that. Good grammar doesn't indicate a good writer, but bad grammar does indicate a bad one[1]. (Good grammar meaning, in this case, an ear for language. Good writers avoid grammatical errors because grammatical errors sound wrong , like an off-pitch no…

There are times when good writers use "bad grammar," though. More often though it's "good grammar in a non-standard dialect."

> More often though it's "good grammar in a non-standard dialect."

Exactly! I wrote a blog post about this: http://kuznetsverve.wordpress.com/2010/05/12/what-is-grammat...

Re: What if we hired writers like we hire developers

#37

Post by [deleted] »

kafkaesque wrote: post #21

I'm a professional writer; i.e., I get paid to write. I didn't study journalism but I was in an interdisciplinary programme that consisted of literature, history, and language (somewhat of a modern day philology degree) in Canada. I've just recently started to learn how to program. I think if this hiring process works for you, great! But as someone who recently started learning to program, I must say writers are vast…

[deleted]

Re: What if we hired writers like we hire developers

#38

Post by soyummy »

kafkaesque wrote: post #34
nessus42 wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Did you really not get that the OP is a parody? The point is that this is obviously NOT the way to hire writers. The implication then being that it is also not the way to hire programmers, even though, sadly, hiring programers is typically done just that way these days.

No, I did not get it. I think this is because, as I said, I just recently started learning to program. I started in January, but I do not commit 100% of my time to it, as I have a full time job that deals with something completely different. I know nothing about hiring developers or being a developer. Also, for the record, I just read in Hitesh's blog's comment section that this is not about hiring writers. Thanks, e…

Here's a development tip:

Obviously, to dabble in programming you must learn the fundamentals-- the syntax and grammar. However, your ultimate goal is to envision a problem, device a system that solves the problem, and then gracefully describe that system using your chosen language. You can always look grammar and syntax up in the documentation.

I think you will see the parallels to your current occupation.

Re: What if we hired writers like we hire developers

#39

Post by india »

nessus42 wrote: post #35
india wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I write lots of code just for the sheer pleasure of it. None of it is publicly available though nor would I like to share it. Shipping code is a lot of work. The other day I wrote a quick app at my end to analyze and make sense of some parts of a project that I am about to take on. It does what it needs to but if I had to ship it, I would want to proof read it and describe it's purpose to a general audience and make…

Okay, well Google doesn't want to hire you if you can't write efficient and elegant code on a whiteboard for a problem they've specified while they look over your shoulder. Me, I only don't want to hire you if you can't take a few pages of code you've written for fun and make it presentable. Who would you rather interview with? (Assuming, of course, that I was offering jobs as nice as the jobs at Google.)

I might be an exception here but I much prefer the whiteboard. I have one in my room and I enjoy problem solving. Pressure environments really do not impact me much. And if you have a whiteboard in your office and you do use it for actual work and not just interviews, this gives me an excellent opportunity to check your quality as a future problem solving accomplice. It provides me a real if brief window into what working with you would be like and I like that.

Having said that, market realities are what they are and I will probably take a month off when I can afford it and put some substantial code out in the wild. Can't hurt to have both bases covered. I will still like to make the point in here that I will be doing this because of the perceived business climate not because I really want to.

Re: What if we hired writers like we hire developers

#40

Post by rhizome »

jaems33 wrote: post #14
kkowalczyk wrote: post #12

This ignores different realities in how programmers and writers work. If you're hiring a writer, you cam ask to see his previous work. Unless he worked for CIA, he can point to books he's written, articles he published etc. You can then read them and that's all you need to make a decision if he's competent enough (you might still interview for cultural fit). If you're hiring a senior engineer that claims he spent las…

Where is the fine line between coding tests and spec work? I'm not a programmer, but I've seen startups co-founded by engineers try hiring designers in a similar fashion to I assume programmers as they test designers with a variety of unpaid projects. I've found it to be pretty annoying given that I've already shown a portfolio of work and it's not unlike spec work. I get that some people may have fabricated their hi…

I don't like all their advice, but one thing that 37Signals does in this situation is just pay the person whatever rate they ask for. In the greater scheme of things, it's not a huge expense, and if you're to the point in the interview process where this actually makes sense, then you have a decent idea that this person is a candidate, and so you can invest a little in the process for everybody's benefit. It's a step beyond the whiteboarding "jump, monkey!" coding interview.
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