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There is no talent shortage

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Re: There is no talent shortage

#81
post #68

There is no talent shortage. There is a shortage of Berkeley/Stanford/MIT grads. Just look at the difference between grads of those school, who basically get money thrown at them, and the rest of graduates, who have a hard time finding a job at all.

There is no talent shortage. There is a shortage of Berkeley/Stanford/MIT grads.

Funny.

The part of me that flatters myself tends to think of geeks as more logical and individualistic. And less likely to follow a clique. And less likely to be biased in such silly ways like preferring someone just because they came from your university.

But reality keeps reminding me that nope, intellectuals can be just as stupidly cliquey and biased as anyone.

Re: There is no talent shortage

#82
post #66
post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I didn't mean to be complaining. It's just an unexpected outcome for me. I can't remember ever having to look for this long before. About half the work I've done has been under my own employ and 80% it has been in Taiwan or China. Truth be told, I've never dealt with a "real HR" department before! I've got a $500/month place in Chinatown, and really haven't found anything near that price with English speaking landlor…

Just don't tell prospective employers about doing programming gigs for $11/hr, that certainly doesn't speak very well to your judgment.

I'd love to hear the arguments for doing $11/hr programming jobs instead of just getting downvoted.

Re: There is no talent shortage

#83
post #48
post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From the outside looking in, it certainly doesn't seem like everyone is eager to snatch up mediocre graduates. I can't say I've done much research on the subject or crunched numbers, but I noticed two things: 1) Complaints about "talent shortages" from top companies and startups in the Valley and otherwise. 2) Companies evaluating people based on experience, GitHub profiles, open source contributions, etc. Not that i…

This is basically my scenario. Got the BS in CS by rushing my degree, but getting into FOSS is proving harder than I would expect, mainly because every project has "some" technology, from automake to some framework like qt or something else that I never learned and thus feel helpless trying to get into, especially on anything with more than 200k LOCs. Getting into something like that is getting through a brick wall w…

The tech field is like that. Work won't be any easier. In fact, expect major libraries and build tools that are internal to a large organization to be less elegant and documented. Learning stuff like that quickly is a skill you're going to need.

I don't have a lot of advice besides "practice".

Well, I do have some. Don't be afraid to open up the tool's source and read it. Try to design the tool yourself and you'll get a better sense of how it's likely to do things.

But mostly, practice.

Re: There is no talent shortage

#84

"John only started programming in college. He has 3 years of “experience” – much of it spent working on school assignments, not projects – and Norman has 10. John’s not as experienced or capable, but he may well be just as talented as Norman. Norman will get snapped up by a top company and snowball into a “rockstar” developer, whereas John will start (and maybe spend) his programming career in relative obscurity." I'…

"I'm not sure what I'm supposed to gather from this John/Norman comparison"

In my opinion, one thing that can happen is the following:

Norman gets easily a job at a great company where he'll continue to improve his skills amongst other 1% programmers; while John takes a job that isn't exactly what he wants, in a so-so unknown company, where he isn't challenged as much and isn't learning as fast.

After a few years, Norman changes job easily because he has worked for Google/Facebook/whatever and that acts as vesting to move him along quickly in the interview process at the new hot companies of the time. John has yet again a harder time because having worked for that unknown company doesn't give any special credit. He might have had to take some jobs that were not exactly what he wanted (e.g. support, QA) and that is questioned when he has interviews. Even with his additional experience, he still has to go the extra mile to pass the ex-Google, Facebook, etc.

Lather, rinse, repeat.

Of course, I'm forcing the trait, but I think this scenario happens fairly frequently. Also, it's certainly possible for John to break the cycle by working on his own things and putting himself "out there", or by just "waiting" a few years until things even out a bit; however it feels that the extra efforts required are not reflecting the initial difference between Norman and John.

Re: There is no talent shortage

#85
post #24
post #10

This article is playing word-games. When employers and economists talk about talent, they mean capability, regardless of whether it's natural or comes from hard work. Your dictionary may say "natural aptitude or skill", but that's irrelevant to the job market.

I didn't mean to get into the debate between natural talent and skills acquired by work - probably should've cut the "natural" part out of the definition to make that clear. I was thinking of the "potentiality" aspect of talent. I agree that employers want capable employees - preferably able to contribute from day one. I think investing in employees who have the potential to be great contributors but are not quite th…

Ah, I see.

I'll admit I haven't seen a lot of explicit on-the-job training (besides that dealing with internal technologies), but I have seen a lot of people who's first job is less challenging than their later ones, who use it as a growing experience and a stepstone.

The real question is whether a large number of programmers don't reach their full potential or do so significantly later than they would have with proper mentoring. A difficult thing to find evidence for either way.

Re: There is no talent shortage

#86
post #19
post #10

This article is playing word-games. When employers and economists talk about talent, they mean capability, regardless of whether it's natural or comes from hard work. Your dictionary may say "natural aptitude or skill", but that's irrelevant to the job market.

Exactly. The "talent shortage" is a lack of employable programmers period , not just a lack of exceptional programmers. And this is easy to see: everybody I know in my class (also Berkeley, coincidentally) has managed to get an internship or full time job without much effort. This includes both people with and without experience before college. I managed to get a couple of interesting offers despite never sending my…

there is some shortage of programmers of any but minimal competence

I think our industry sets a high bar for "minimal competence". It isn't fizzbuzz. I went to an interview where I was asked to write, on the whiteboard, a recursive solution to the problem of printing all possible permutations of a string. I blew it, and of course I went home and worked on it a bit and solved it (the way I usually program, try it a bit, run it, modify, test, iterate), and I emailed them my solution, but that's how it goes: no offer. I want to be very clear about this, I am not complaining. This company has every right to decide what their interview process will be. But of course it irritates me to no end to hear about how there's a shortage of programmers beyond "minimal competence", especially when the people doing the hiring what to hire whip-smart engineers at roughly half the rate a top MBA or law grad would command.

I've had such discussions on this board with people about the the concept of a "shortage" at the "market rate" when everyone is experiencing hiring troubles at this rate. I think it's an absurd notion - if demand clearly exceeds supply, this is not evidence of a shortage, it is evidence that salaries need to rise to reach an equilibrium. All I can say is that some very intelligent and rational people simply disagree with me on this.

As a personal anecdote - I was in grad school at Berkeley during the first dot com boom, when industries were claiming a severe shortate of engineering graduates. I saw reports of average starting salaries out of the MBA program, the JD program, and the various MS/PhD engineering grads... not a single engineering degree program, even PhDs in CS, were at the MBA or JD level. Why is there so much resistance to paying engineers what it will actually take to get more top people into the field?

Re: There is no talent shortage

#87
post #68

There is no talent shortage. There is a shortage of Berkeley/Stanford/MIT grads. Just look at the difference between grads of those school, who basically get money thrown at them, and the rest of graduates, who have a hard time finding a job at all.

I know someone who just graduated cum laude with a BS from UIUC who is having trouble.

...and UIUC has one of the top CS programs in the country (on many lists it's the #1 CS program at a public university). Around here (I live near uiuc) Bill Gates is famous for declaring that MS hires more UIUC grads than any other single University in the world.

Honestly, the idea that someone can make it through the CS program at UIUC, and end up shunned because he/she didn't graduate form MIT, is a perfect example of what's wrong with hiring practices these days.

Re: There is no talent shortage

#88
post #4

no. there is absolutely a talent shortage. as proven by 1) the fact that the percentage of of the general population who have an aptitude for "brainy things" in general is pretty much the exact same as it was 20 years ago and 2) the percentage of companies with a need for said people is growing exponentially as software eats the world. basically, all of the new-need companies from point 2 are bottom-feeding all of th…

Even if the hole needs to be filled, there is shortage of brainy people without jobs in this world.

I meant to write 'no shortage' but am now past the edit window, sorry

Re: There is no talent shortage

#89
post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

of course natural talent exists Well then, what is natural talent, how do you objectify and measure it in a person, if it so obviously exists? Success is best correlated with time invested in skill development. Natural talent is bullshit, it's like attributing height to a basketball player's success.

I disagree with you here. There are some areas where I am quite frankly talented. Once I get Perl coding on accounting software, there is very little that can stop me and quite frankly I can outperform nearly any programmer I have ever worked with. On the other hand, there are also things which I cannot do very well no matter how hard I try. When I was in college for example I used to be able to help struggling stude…

That isn't what natural talent is supposed to be though. You're good at programming Perl probably because you've practiced more, or you care more and thus have thought about it more. Software writing is a skill which you have honed by practice, not naturality.

I don't know why you can't score A's at math though. It makes no sense to me as to why you can help others get good grades but can't get good grades yourself. It probably means you lack the hours applying through repetitive practice.

Re: There is no talent shortage

#90
post #13

It is a weird market. I've been job searching pretty hard for the past month in SF and the response has been a bit frustrating. I get tons of people reaching out to me after meeting me at tech meetups, etc, but I'd say over half of those leads end up cutting me at an HR filter before I can even get an interview! From what I understand it's due to two things-- at 34, I'm older than others going for junior positions. I…

I'm in a pretty similar situation (30 years old, no full-time programming on my résumé, but a long history of technical problem solving). One thing I'll add is that, at least for me, the problem of employers only looking for people with X skill right now is not as bad in SF as it is elsewhere. I'm in Washington, DC and the only interest I've gotten has been from companies in the Bay area.

That sounds crazy to me. Are you able to get a clearance of any kind? If you are eligible then there should be thousands of jobs in the DC area to choose from.

Of course, those aren't super exciting startup-like jobs, but they are places where you'll get a bunch of experience.

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